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General: Patent rules and costs

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      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeAug 12th 2012 edited
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Joiner</cite>Ha ha. Jeremy, remember those early Star Treks and the crazy notion that you could speak to someone on the other side of a planet by just talking into a device on your wrist? Oh, and SEE them whilst doing it?

    Nowadays, I don't hold my breath when someone says something is impossible.</blockquote>

    Arthur C Clarke summed it up rather well, in his three laws:

    <i>"1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

    2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

    3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."</i>

    In this case it was impossible, at least as described in the patent.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeAug 12th 2012 edited
     
    I suggest you take a look in ST's loft space. When he's silent on here it's because he's off visiting another planet.

    Actually, come to that, when he is on here he's often...

    Nah. Might have to come face to face with him soon. :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeAug 12th 2012
     
    There is a train of thought that says the human race cannot imagine something that is not actually possible.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeAug 12th 2012
     
    Then do not hypnotise me and mention the name of Clauia Schiffer if you don't want that theory blown away. :shamed:
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeAug 12th 2012
     
    I was once asked to help finish getting a patent approved when the inventer left the company. The patent people kept turning up other earlier patents that shared features with the one I was working on. In the end had to delete several claims but got it done in the end. Dragged on for at least a year.
  6.  
    Just an update.

    I have now filed a patent application with the UK Patent office. I did use an attorney and would thoroughly recommend anyone considering an application do the same. The legal 'speak' is quite frankly daunting when you see the finished article.

    Also the Attorney offered very valuable advice and asked many pertinent questions - prompting modifications and improvements to the design.

    So thanks again all for your help with this

    Mike
    •  
      CommentAuthorikimiki
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2012 edited
     
    I just happenned upon this thread now, so I've missed much of what has been discussed.

    Did anyone mention to you that you have to file separate patent applications in each legal durisdiction you wish to have protection?

    The applications themselves cost, and the annual maintenance fees can mount up into the hundreds of thousands over the first few (say 3) years, if you're keen on protecting your technology in major markets (countries) around the world.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2012
     
    Posted By: Mike GeorgeThe legal 'speak' is quite frankly daunting when you see the finished article.

    Yep - I read a patent a while ago which I couldn't understand, from the legal version of the description, what exactly was being claimed. This is a tad embarrassing as my name is on the patent and I drafted the original English version.
    • CommentAuthorjules
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2012
     
    It's worth never losing sight of the fact that it's only worth filing a patent application if you have a plan for making money out of your invention, and a decent amount of money at that. Everybody dreams of that of course, but it's a usually very difficult to make it happen.

    The other thing to remember is that if an idea only has an expected shelf life of half a dozen years before the world moves on, a patent is probably not be worth it.

    Finally, unless you really know what you're doing it is certainly worth at least talking to a patent attorney, and probably getting him to write your patent application. It's never cheap - £1000-2000 - but the chances of you getting a patent which is actually of any use to you otherwise is remote. Of course I would say that, because I'm a patent attorney.
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: ikimikiI just happenned upon this thread now, so I've missed much of what has been discussed.

    Did anyone mention to you that you have to file separate patent applications in each legal durisdiction you wish to have protection?

    The applications themselves cost, and the annual maintenance fees can mount up into the hundreds of thousands over the first few (say 3) years, if you're keen on protecting your technology in major markets (countries) around the world.


    Yes, I've been advised regarding further applications in other countries, thanks. Though funding for such is not an option at present - though I do have a year to take this next step I believe

    I'm still very wary of disclosing too much information and my Attorney has advised that detailed discussions with any interested parties should still (ideally) be under the protection of a Confidentiality Agreement.

    Posted By: julesIt's worth never losing sight of the fact that it's only worth filing a patent application if you have a plan for making money out of your invention, and a decent amount of money at that. Everybody dreams of that of course, but it's a usually very difficult to make it happen.

    The other thing to remember is that if an idea only has an expected shelf life of half a dozen years before the world moves on, a patent is probably not be worth it.

    Finally, unless you really know what you're doing it is certainly worth at least talking to a patent attorney, and probably getting him to write your patent application. It's never cheap - £1000-2000 - but the chances of you getting a patent which is actually of any use to you otherwise is remote. Of course I would say that, because I'm a patent attorney.


    Yes, I do have a plan for making lots and lots of money:bigsmile:

    The advantage (and risk?) is that the market place for the Invention is massive - and global. Inevitably? discussions to exploit the Invention will involve big players in the Insulation Industry. My dilemma is whether to take the softly softly approach, involving small manufacturing companies to bring the product to market myself; or whether to take the bull by the horns and just approach the big boys.:neutral: Any thoughts much appreciated
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2012
     
  12.  
    Thanks Ed, Though the posters there seem to have conflicting views on this as well :(
    • CommentAuthorjules
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2012
     
    I have to say that I don't agree with the johndcook blog on idea stealing. Generally the people you are most likely to talk to about your invention in detail are precisely the people who know most about the subject, and who are most able to put it into practice - ie potential manufacturers. Even if they do not overtly steal your idea, once they know about it they can't just pretend they don't, and you might even find a different but better version appearing instead. Even if they do nothing, if you tell them without a confidentiality agreement before you file a patent application, you invalidate the application since you have previously disclosed the invention.

    Contrast that with getting a confidentiality agreement. Once you have a blank agreement, getting it signed by anyone you talk to about your invention is not complicated: you give them the document and ask them to sign it. I don't see what you really gain by not doing so.

    On the subject of whom to talk to, that depends on the idea. If it's an insulation product, then obviously it's someone with the ability to make it (at the right price) and sell it. Maybe a small enterprise will be more likely to take you on than a large one, but there's no general rule.
  14.  
    Thank you Jules, that's very useful advice.

    The patent application is already filed, and I did not disclose anything previously to anyone - so no worries on that score.
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2012
     
    Yes, also bear in mind that a CA means that you can re-file the patent later. Or withdraw it and possibly re-file later.
  16.  
    Yes, thanks Jon. My Attorney did also mention that. Seems I picked a good one after some solid advice here :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2012
     
    Another thought is that the US patent filing rules are different: If you file a patent here and can prove that you've filed it (you get a copy back if you pay up the fee), then if someone in the USA invents it and makes money, you can invalidate their patent (because the rule is 'first to invent' not first to file in the USA): This is why Edison flew over to the UK to make a deal with a first inventor (a lightbulb if I remember) when it became apparent to him that he wasn't the first to invent.

    So if you withdraw and don't let anyone know, the application becomes a 'sleeper'.

    This procedure doesn't work anywhere else though: Everywhere else it's first to file, not first to invent.
  18.  
    Now that I didn't know. Thanks.
  19.  
    This threads been running for around 4 years , be intersting to find out what you've got Mike, any idea how long before you can give details ?
  20.  
    I could reveal all now james, though I've been advised to only do so via a Non Disclosure Agreement. I've had a few mad ideas since the thread has been running - the present one is only a year or two old.

    I have contacted several people in the Industry to test their interest - so far only one has gone so far as to agree to the NDA, though it has only been a week since the Patent was applied for.

    The hope is to agree a deal with a manufacturer, and then keep the detail quiet until the product is available to market and sell. If I cannot get someone on board, then I guess I will have to be more open. Or start making the product myself in the garage:cry:
  21.  
    Jon, what kind of fee are we talking about for the States?
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2012 edited
     
    Hi George

    When a patent attorney does it, it works out quite expensive (I have a recollection of a fee of about £2000, but that was a while ago). But you don't need to have filed in the USA to be the first to invent under USA rules.

    If you do it yourself (a process not for the faint hearted), then it looks as if the all in fees are about $1000 when filing as a small entity. Here's the link:

    http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/qs/ope/fee100512.htm

    I'd be very wary about filing yourself unless you've done a test dummy run with a patentable application that you don't really care about first: All sorts of rules can trip you up.
    • CommentAuthorjules
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2012
     
    Jon/Mike
    The law in the US is changing, and I think that Mike's application, which will presumably be filed elsewhere in the world (if he can afford it!) in Oct 2013, will come under the new law (although this should be checked - there are transitional provisions for some applications filed between Sep 12 and March 13).

    Anyway, under the new US law it will effectively be first to file the patent application, not first to invent, just like the rest of the world.

    In many countries, patent office fees are not huge - it's the costs of the attorneys that bumps it up, as you end up paying them as well as your own GB attorney. You will talking a few thousand in each country, although if you are serious there is the option to file a "PCT" (Patent Cooperation Treaty) application next autumn, which will cost about £2-3000 up front but will give you the option of most countries in the world, with the decision - and cost - for country choice delayed by 18 months.

    So in a nutshell you have 12 months to get your invention to a state commercially that you can justify spending several thousand pounds to get protection outside the UK. That's why I said above that the plan as to how you make money from your invention is in many ways more important than the patent side.
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2012 edited
     
    The law in the US is changing, and I think that Mike's application, which will presumably be filed elsewhere in the world (if he can afford it!) in Oct 2013, will come under the new law (although this should be checked - there are transitional provisions for some applications filed between Sep 12 and March 13).

    That is marvellous news! Do you have a link showing a bit more information about this?

    I agree with you about justification; it's rare for a patent application to really help much in the commercialisation process and I'd rarely advise anyone to actually do it. However, there are exceptions to the rule: For example, where you patent purely to be able to say "this is newly invented and there's more to it than just this", you don't need patent attorneys and it's very cost-effective (largely because you don't have to care about PCT).
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2012 edited
     
    jon, you seemed so well informed on this subject I'm surprised you didn't know about the US first-to-file/invent change (America Invents act, 2011). I've known about that for a year or so and I avoid the patent system like the plague as in my area (software) it does nothing but harm, which has made me extremely skeptical of its benefits anywhere, and an active campaigner against the hopelessly broken system. I point-blank refuse to file any patents for my employer and make sure that everything I do is published to prevent anyone else filing on it.

    It does seem like they can make sense for a simple easy-to-copy widget/device, but for most businesses of any complexity just doing business, and doing it in the open, seems like a much better plan. I hope Mike finds it worthwhile spending a couple of grand on this, as he's a decent bloke, but it's difficult to see many circumstances where that would be so.

    Here is some info on the US changes: including links to various articles discussing the change. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_to_file_and_first_to_invent#The_USA.27s_change_to_first-to-file
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2012
     
    Thanks Wookey

    I've been living in a bit of a bubble for the last year so anything that happened after Jan 2011 I've missed: Too much to do. The project I'm working on started out as a back yard experiment in renewables but has since taken on a life of is own.

    Thanks again for the information. Seriously useful!

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