Green Building Forum - Dowsing

Dowsing

fostertom — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 09:12:51 +0100

No chance - I walked along the length of each line, being steered by the dowsing rod as pointer. When doing that I frequently check that I'm truly on line by moving my hand holding the rod about 18" sideways, off line, then it points back in to the line at about 45o and as I bring my hand back it 'clicks' very definitely into pointing straight ahead when it hits the line. The points that you see, I stopped along the way to locate by measurement - principally the crossing points, plus others as necessary to give the scale and shape of each 'half-cycle' loop between the crossing points.

Dowsing

TheDoctor — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:33:56 +0100

thanks for the clarification

so - what is it then?!

Dowsing

fostertom — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 12:23:56 +0100

What is it then? moment of truth - the answer is - I don't know! but it's certainly there, it's something, of great clarity and precision. What usefulness, or what power it may have, remains to be explored - hopefully by science. The most interesting thing, for now, is humans' ready ability to detect it, and most of all, the role of Intentionality in the process. Both the latter things, routinised 'science' likes to ridicule, define out or otherwise justify ignoring - because particularly Intentionality, if seen as a powerful interesting phenomenon rather than just an experimental annoyance, upsets the whole apple cart of scientific method!

For the time being, if anyone's interested, the best intro to the flavour of all this, is The Sun and the Serpent by Hamish Miller and Paul Broadhurst, Pendragon Press 1989, about the mighty so-called Michael and Mary line, one of the 'biggest' (whatever that means) of such line-pairs on the planet. Whereas the line-pair I dowsed has crossing points and 'spread' measured in tens of metres, the MM's crossings and 'spread' are measured in tens of kilometres. As it happens, Mary comes right through my farmyard - I knew she was nearby, from the book, but not until I idly enquired, with the rod, at what distance (by using the yes/no bracketing method described earlier), and got 18 metres, did I realise ... the hairs stood up on my neck!

Such lines are everywhere - certainly, other line-pairs comparable to the one I dowsed, cross the same site, and I suspect they exist in fractally ever-diminishing scale down to atomic scale maybe. Other dowsers have delved much deeper into all this than I have - it looks like a morass of ever-elaboarating pattern complexity. But that's OK because Intentionality is perfectly capable of distinguishing one element from another, i.e. detecting one and ignoring the others, until you Intend otherwise.

Dowsing

joe.e — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:41:01 +0100

"How do we know the lines are there?"
"Because you can find them by dowsing."
"But how do we know that dowsing works?"
"Because look at these amazing lines you can find!"
Another explaination is possible: perhaps you found the lines because you were looking for them - it was you 'intention' to find something cosmic on your friends' land. You'd read the book; you wanted to give your friends a present; you walked out the shape you had in mind, with the rods helpfully confirming it. The rods didn't indicate any points that don't fit the pattern because you didn't walk over any other points. The 'fractal' quality - that this form is similar to the Mary and Michael line but on a smaller scale - came about because you reproduced the picture you had in your mind of the Mary and Michael line, but neatly scaled it down to fit the piece of land you were on. After all, it would have been a dull present indeed if no lines had crossed the land, or even if just one did.
I know this doesn't 'prove' that you're wrong about what you found, but it does serve as a more simple explaination for it all - Occam's Razor is still pretty sharp.

Dowsing

fostertom — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:36:06 +0100

Are you going to try it, joe.e, or just do online mind gymnastics? The first is the easy way you can check this out for yourself. Want any help, just email me.

Dowsing

joe.e — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 19:27:00 +0100

You're assuming I haven't tried it... There was a period of my life when I was really interested in dowsing and similar subjects. But it gradually came to me that there were other explainations for even the most convincing of my personal dowsing experiences, and that without consciously deciding to, I had avoided situations that had a possibility of clear, right or wrong answers. So I'm an apostate, even worse than an unbeliever. But I don't think that my experience invalidates yours, and I'm not trying to attack your broader worldview. Here's a story you'll like.
About five years ago I came by an old BBC computer. I wanted to show my stepson some BASIC, and I'd just seen a fantastic story about the Global Consciousness Project, an ongoing experiment whereby computers generating random numbers have their results analysed for 'randomness'. Evidently, at the right moment on September 11th there was a great spike in the unlikelihood of the results - the improbability factor, as it were, with similar spikes at other moments of mass emotion. Anyway, I wrote a program to do the same. I think I had the computer generate random numbers between one and ten, then look at the previous thousand or ten thousand numbers with a standard distribution type of thing. So the machine sat there showing a constantly updated improbability factor, hovering around normal. Later that evening we looked in on the machine, and the figures started going nuts - wildly unlikely. After puzzling over it for a while, I heard a noise outside. The whole street was leaning out of their windows and coming outside to look at a huge tyre fire about half a mile away. Half of Bristol must have been doing the same. Once the initial excitement wore off, the numbers calmed down again.

Dowsing

fostertom — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 21:40:48 +0100

Woo spooky - this'll be the work of Dean Radin? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Radin.

Posted By: joe.efor even the most convincing of my personal dowsing experiences, and that without consciously deciding to, I had avoided situations that had a possibility of clear, right or wrong answers

So, having realised, did you try some situations that had that possibility of clear, right or wrong answers? Real shame you invalidated your interest and ability. How about going into it scientifically now?

Dowsing

fostertom — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:11:23 +0100

joe.e, this from The Sun and the Serpent p.120. Our heroes, having spent two years tracking the 'St Michael leyline' first intuited (publicly revived) by hippy old John Michell (1969), from Carn les Boel (next headland to Lands End) as far as Avebury, and finding it, far from Alfred Watkins' 'Old Straight Track' (1925), a meandering line but with 'nodes' which lay on a dead-straight cross country line, they accidentally realised that 'Michael' was accompanied by a 'sister' line - which they called the St Mary line. Returning to Carn les Boel, there she was, in plain 'view' but not previously detected because their Intentionality was otherwise. Leaving Carn les Boel ....

"Heading off to pick â€˜Maryâ€™ upon the nearest inland road, we harked back to the time spent tracking her solar counterpart across this remote westerly tip of Cornwall, Then, the â€˜Michaelâ€™ line had not passed through any of the major monuments with which the area is strewn, and this had surprised us greatly. In retrospect however, this had its positive side, as those who may be inclined to accuse us of fabricating the entire adventure would surely naturally expect us to have made our dragon line pass through at least some of the impressive megaliths which abound in this intimate peninsula. Perhaps we could gain some credibility by default, we commented wryly. But the reality was that we could not make these lines do anything to fulfil our own ideas; the whole project had so far shattered our preconceptions at every twist and turn in the most uncompromising manner. The evidence for this is overwhelming from the written record so far. Throughout, the path of these energy flows has been merely observed. The earth currents and their preferred routes are beyond human caprice."

Dowsing

mrswhitecat — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:11:59 +0100

Just thought I'd mention that we have now found an old well on our land. This was discovered by the even lower tech method of walking backwards and tripping over a rock covering the top of it. The walking backwards was not a conscious act of 'divining'. However, by not looking where he was going the rock was dislodged, leading to the discovery. If he had been looking where he was going, the rock would have been stepped over / gone around.

Dowsing

fostertom — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 21:57:20 +0100

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/wdp/mysteriouswest/Hoping-flood-new-dowsers/article-340087-detail/article.html

Dowsing

marktime — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 07:49:54 +0100

Quote from link: "In a way, if you can think of a question, you can dowse for the answer."

Pity they can't find the answer as to how it works!

Dowsing

fostertom — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:46:23 +0100

Pity you don't want there to be an answer

Dowsing

fostertom — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:27:09 +0100

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7623256.stm - maybe S*eptics too.

Dowsing

marktime — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:29:30 +0100

Posted By: fostertomPity you don't want there to be an answer

No, there's the difference between us, Tom. I want a credible explanation for the world around me.

What does a study of the fear reactions of a small group (less than 46) have to do with this thread?

Dowsing

fostertom — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 17:18:45 +0100

Dunno, but thanks for all the vigilance.

Dowsing

Martian — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 22:11:50 +0100

Maybe there should be a sign on this thread:
"Please do not feed the troll."

Dowsing

Tuna — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 22:34:22 +0100

Can't resist - which one is the troll?

Dowsing

Martian — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:16:30 +0100

A troll is someone who posts on an internet usegroup or forum with the intention of upsetting the normal purpose of the group or simply irritating other users for their own enjoyment.
This would include posting numerous new topics on subject matter which is not particularly relevant to a forum's purpose, but will be guaranteed to provoke responses from users with known viewpoints.
I admit that in moderation this can be quite amusing, but where it starts to overshadow the useful information available on a site or thread it will simply turn people off from participation.

I guess that now we have a definition, perhaps you could "dowse" for the "troll"?

Dowsing

stephendv — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:59:12 +0100

I've had 3 dowsers on our land recently for the purposes of drilling a well, all 3 had different results, this is their story:

1. Old Man Rippoff
He was recommended by the local water board as the only person they knew in the area who dowsed. He arrived at the land one morning along with his son who explained the process while the old man whipped out his sticks and started walking around the perimeter. The son explained that they both dowse and drill wells, and that if we wanted to they could guarantee the results - for an additional fee (no water no pay, but if there is water pay more). The old man stopped a few times, moved some rocks about, then continued walking around. Finally he delivered his verdict: There's no water here, not a single drop, he advised that we'd better sell this land and buy something else! oh, and that'll be 300 euros for 30 minutes of his services please.

2. The Son
Came across another father and son team, this lot were eager to help out and said that they'd waive the dowsing fee. Free is my favourite price, so off they went, this time with sticks and pendulum. He didn't do a perimeter sweep though, instead just started walking in a direction. Came back about 15 minutes later saying that there was water at this particular spot at a depth of 50m and there was more water at 80m. Great! Quoted 50 euros per meter to drill - I still wasn't happy drilling without some guarantee - but he wasn't willing to guarantee anything, even when I offered more cash for a positive find. Long story short, mixup on the telephone, miscommunication, the guy starts drilling before we know he has and BOOM he finds water at 30 meters right where he said it would be. He recommends we go deeper (at this point I'm a little more confident) and he hits more water at 90m. He installs a well, all our neighbours (who've been here 40+ years) hear the news of water in a rather dry area and become his new customers. Everybody happy.

3. The Family Friend
The friend had been involved with this project from the start, we sent him a satellite image of the land, and he came back with 2 marks on it saying where we should drill. Since he works for the meteorological society and recently sold a few farms I thought he had some insider knowledge (laser assisted geological studies perhaps? magneto-sonar imaging? quantum nano bots that flew down between the soil looking for moisture?) No. He printed out the satellite images and used a pendulum to dowse the 2 points. Anyway, after we've drilled the well, he comes around saying we've thrown our money away what idiots we are for not drilling where he pointed out. He proceeds to do some dowsing on the land and, why yes! he again finds the 2 spots he previously identified from the satellite images! Amazing!
He says that the well we installed is fed by a small underground current and there's much more water at his 2 locations. Grrrrr.

What I've learnt from the experience:
Does dowsing work? I Don't know (and from the above story there's not enough data to tell. Drilling 1 well does not a scientific study make).
Is dowsing just mystical nonsense? I Don't know.
Is there a whole lot of BS from knowledgeable experts? Yes.
Is there a certification body that can certify the quality of a dowsers' work? No.
Can I study dowsing at a University or technical college? No.
Will dowsers guarantee their work and drill at their own expense if they're wrong? Not in my experience.

Dowsing

marktime — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 15:23:39 +0100

Congratulations Stephen. The best news for you I would think is that now you can have a flushing toilet.

Dowsing

stephendv — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 17:22:46 +0100

LOL. So true