Home  5  Books  5  Magazines  5  News  5  GreenPro  5  HelpDesk  5  Your Cart  5  Register  5  Green Living Forum
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building magazine

Green Building magazine

New - Autumn 2014 edition.

View the current issue.
Subscribe now.
Magazine homepage.
Browse back issues.





Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




    • CommentAuthorSally M
    • CommentTimeSep 13th 2008
     
    Hi
    As lead is very expensive, has anyone used an alternative for new roof gullies??
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 13th 2008
     
    What do you mean by expensive? Expensive to buy -- well yes but you only do it once every 100+ years so then it is cheap which is why it is so widely used

    And it is best and 100% recyclable too :bigsmile:
  1.  
    Yes, I have used this http://www.ascinfo.co.uk/9/resourcefile/10/22/04/ubiflex.pdf About half the prce of lead and can be run in 12m lengths - rather than the 2m for lead. Also much quicker to install, and no one wants to steal it! Can be worked just like lead. I have only used it for flashings at the moment as any failure would not be as serious as in a valley. It is relatively new on the market and therefore not stood the test of time as yet. 15yr warranty though.
  2.  
    Looks like a piece of crap Mike. If it's guaranteed for 15 years that is probably its life expectancy. Since it's oil based, it will be eventually be destroyed by UV light.

    Over on this side of the pond people still use copper flashings - looks great and lasts easily as long as lead and isn't as expensive as you might think compared to the labour costs of installation.

    Paul in Montreal.
  3.  
    Hmm, I'm not so dismissive of new products until I have seen them in the flesh and used them. Like I said, I've only used it for flashings at the moment. No foot traffic so hard to see how it will break down. I'll let you know in 15yrs if I've had to replace it:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorSally M
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2008
     
    Thank you very much for your comments. I will check out the firm mentioned. Went on their website and found it definitely food for thought. That's what I love about this forum!
    Sally
    • CommentAuthorfuncrusher
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2008
     
    I routinely buy most of my roofing lead from a scrayard, which surprisingly has a steady trickle of unused part or full rolls of lead, occasionally with very minor damage, at half new price.

    For new build there are pre-formed valleys of man-made materials, bu personally i stick with lead. Copper is good for large roof areas. I suspect they avoid lead in Canada owing to extreme low winter temps - and for opposite reasons use zinc in v hot countries.
    • CommentAuthorStuartB
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    How about zinc?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    Is ok for soakers but only just and can be used for whole roofs but not good in valleys and for sure not in box gutters. Lead is best!
    • CommentAuthorcaliwag
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    Rheinzink and VMzink very much the choice of Continental architects and increasingly in the UK, for whole roofs and complex shapes. To my mind it does look good and, as it is worked on site, deals with curves, corners, ridges, dormers etc you get excellent waterproofing, and longevity...but it's not cheap, though cheaper than lead.

    Sadly I suppose this doesn't answer your question. When I used it, it was installed by a specialist, trained contractor for guarantee purposes, I suppose.
  4.  
    I do agree that Lead is best - without a doubt. Sometimes budget dictates otherwise though....
  5.  
    Posted By: Mike GeorgeHmm, I'm not so dismissive of new products until I have seen them in the flesh and used them.


    Just the fact that the quoted lifespan is only 30 years gives me the feeling that the product is not suitable for any kind of green building. Since labour costs are often dominant, why not install a product that will last at least 100 years?

    Posted By: Mike GeorgeI do agree that Lead is best - without a doubt. Sometimes budget dictates otherwise though....


    What makes lead better than copper (except possibly price)? Is it easier to work? Copper ages to a fabulous colour (IMHO) which isn't something that can be said for lead or zinc. I'm sure lead refining and copper refining are both pretty dismal for the environment - I wonder which is worse? Zinc isn't great either for that matter.

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    Surprised nobody's mentioned which materials are and aren't compatible with rainwater harvesting, particularly for potable use.
    • CommentAuthorSally M
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    Ed,
    This is a valid point as I am having rainwater harvesting. From what I have read, I think lead is ok because the water isn't in contact for hours with the lead. I am only planning to use the water for toilets, washing machines and garden. Please, if I have got this wrong, let me know!....I don't want dead plants!
  6.  
    hi,
    here in france you cannot buy lead flashing of any sort , it is all zinc sheet.
    as i understand it is because lead leaches into water course .
    farmer mike
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008 edited
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Paul in Montreal</cite><blockquote><cite>Just the fact that the quoted lifespan is only 30 years gives me the feeling that the product is not suitable for any kind of green building. Since labour costs are often dominant, why not install a product that will last at least 100 years?.</blockquote>

    I would say that Ubiflex is probably only 20-25% of the cost of lead when factoring in Labour. It really is very quick and easy to use. So the answer is cost, which is the advice the OP asked for


    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Paul in Montreal</cite><blockquote><cite>What makes lead better than copper (except possibly price)? Is it easier to work? Copper ages to a fabulous colour (IMHO) which isn't something that can be said for lead or zinc. I'm sure lead refining and copper refining are both pretty dismal for the environment - I wonder which is worse? Zinc isn't great either for that matter.Paul in Montreal.</blockquote>

    Don't know which is worse. I have no experience of using or working copper, though I suspect lead is easier because it is more malleable. It is also what is commonly used in my part of the world. I have only ever seen copper used for rainwater goods. If it were used for flashing it would probably be more attractive to thieves due to the high comparative scrap value.

    I have heard that my local council only use Ubiflex now due to the theft of lead.

    It doesn't last 100yrs if someone nicks it:bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorecoworrier
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    You could use fiberglass, not particullaly 'Eco' but it will last 25 years, it is very robust, and you can
    add a gel coat to prolong its life.
    You can get lots of preformed stuff from http://www.cfsnet.co.uk/acatalog/1project-roofs.html.
    • CommentAuthorSally M
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    Thanks for this, Ecoworrier.

    I had never thought of fiberglass..so I will check this out. Will my roof end up looking like a canoe, though!:bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorecoworrier
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    :bigsmile: More like a swimming pool.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    Posted By: Sally MThis is a valid point as I am having rainwater harvesting. From what I have read, I think lead is ok because the water isn't in contact for hours with the lead. I am only planning to use the water for toilets, washing machines and garden. Please, if I have got this wrong, let me know!....I don't want dead plants!


    Yes, that's what I've read, too.

    Judith Thornton, The Water Book, 2nd Edition:

    Rainwater is slightly acidic and will dissolve small amounts of lead roof flashings. Assuming you are not going to drink the water, this isn't a problem, although lead gutters and downpipes should be avoided as they may result in lead levels being too high for rainwater to be used on edible crops in the garden.


    On the other hand, the Vales' Autonomous House uses copper flashings because the water there is used for drinking.

    Still, lead is one of those insidious problems with long-term cumulative effects. Avoiding its use with water to go on edible crops is a further small nudge towards other choices as is leaving the option open for potable use of the water in the future.
    • CommentAuthorJohan
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    Just to mention a material nobody has mentioned yet, galvanized steel.

    Suitable for valleys, soakers, gutters, down pipes and complete roof covering. By far the cheapest option, not poisonous in anyway, life time up to 60 years and the mining process isd not as nasty as with Zinc/lead/copper.

    Not as malleable as lead or copper obviously, but it's commonly used in Germany, Scandinavia and central Europe.
    • CommentAuthorcaliwag
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    Cannot really see how galv. steel would do the job...any manipulation would disturb the coating and lead to rust. I suppose if you fabricated everything...test fitted it and then sent it off to be galvanised, you have a solution. Would be very surprised if the galvanizers would guaratee more than 20 years though, and that depends on local enviroment.
  7.  
    Posted By: caliwagCannot really see how galv. steel would do the job.


    Galvanized steel is also common over here in Canada - lasts 50-100 years or so (judging by the state of some of the houses around here that have galvanized flashings). Regular manipulation doesn't damage the coating at all as it's effectively fused into the steel - but the zinc does dissolve over the years and wear through which does lead to rust. No-one uses lead over here and it doesn't look like it was ever used in the past 100 years. Copper is still the best option in terms of longevity and easy manipulation and isn't as expensive as you might think. I've never heard of thieves removing it - but that's not to say that copper theft is unknown. Anyway, after a short time it goes dull and most thieves are too dull themselves to realize it's copper I guess. Galvanized steel roofs are also common - we fitted one to the new house we built as we want as low maintenance as possible - though the roof is actually "gavalume" which is a different coating than straight zinc.

    Paul in Montreal

    p.s. I'll go out today and take a photo of the rework of an interesting looking firestation in to apartments that has recently had a fabulous standing seam copper roof fitted!
    • CommentAuthorJohan
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    Paul,

    In UK copper and lead theft has become a big problem over the last years (I'm please to hear it's not in Canada!). Mainly because the metal price is so high now and also lead is used so much on church roofs so that you can easily get hold of large quantaties.

    For pure copper you get about £3.50-£4.00 per kilo, which is pretty good!

    Polyester/plastisol coated galavanized steal is used a lot in the commercial sector in the UK, just not so much in the domestic sector.
    • CommentAuthorTheDoctor
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    galv steel is very common in Scotland on ridge and hip lines over slate in place of ridge tiles
    less common in valleys etc
    • CommentAuthorSally M
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    Can anyone give me a supplier of galvanised steel that they would recommend.........I like this idea!...certainly worth getting a quote.
    • CommentAuthorTerry
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    Paul in Montreal - unfortunately copper theft is growing here. A village hall not too far away was stripped of flashings, gutters and down pipes within two days of instalation recently. a fair bit of collateral damage done during removal as well. Just hope nobody hears about ours :sad:
    • CommentAuthorJulian
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    Are you looking for a material for the valleys on your roof? As TheDoc says galvanised steel is used a lot in Scotland and I think it's well suited to use over hips but probably less good in a valley where it may stay wetter longer. If you are not familiar with it, Roofkrete is a thin, cement based render type roofing membrane. When I was considering an alternative to lead I discussed it with the Roofkrete contactor and he said he had used it for valleys very effectively. It's an immensely durable material and could be worked easily into valleys or just about anywhere else.
    • CommentAuthorjoe.e
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2008 edited
     
    If you're going to get something fabricated, you could look into Corten steel. I have no idea how expensive it is as a raw material, but the actual fabrication would cost the same as galvanised, more or less, and it would be much, much more long-lived.
    • CommentAuthorSally M
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2008
     
    Julian,
    I have read up on Roofkrete with fascination, thanks to this forum. My house build has balconies which I had intended to use Roofkrete. How does the cost compare to lead for valleys, do you know? It could be a one stop shop!
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press