Sun, 21 Jun 2026 13:05:09 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33634#Comment_33634 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33634#Comment_33634 Thu, 25 Sep 2008 00:00:54 +0100 mikeyb_leeds
Has anyone see, used, had experience, or other wise have an an opinion on the Mi*****ushi Ecodan.

I have been recommended it rather than using solar to heat water.
The Ecodan does both heating and water, for not much more installation cost.

It was the first I heard of it and was looking for more information.


Thanks

Mike]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33635#Comment_33635 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33635#Comment_33635 Thu, 25 Sep 2008 00:14:31 +0100 tony
Or was it as well as solar?]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33749#Comment_33749 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33749#Comment_33749 Thu, 25 Sep 2008 23:57:35 +0100 mikeyb_leeds
To the point as always :-) Thanks

I've not decided just yet.
I could do both but obviously there would be a longer payback for the solar.
I'm getting a quote soon. I will certainly ask if I can do both.

Does any one have any idea what proportion of heating one normally spends on heating water vs heating the home?
Or approx how much your gas/electricity bill "might" reduce if you installed solar water.

Thanks
Mike]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33752#Comment_33752 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33752#Comment_33752 Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:21:07 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: mikeyb_leedsDoes any one have any idea what proportion of heating one normally spends on heating water vs heating the home?

Some numbers I got from somewhere (sorry, I'm better at noting sources these days):

UK average household annual energy usage:

Space heating: 12 900 kWh
Water heating: 5 700 kWh
Lights, appliances, cooking: 3 000 kWh

So, space heating is roughly twice water heating.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33753#Comment_33753 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33753#Comment_33753 Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:26:06 +0100 tony
You should not look at solar in terms of payback but as return on investment it works well that way.

Hot water bill depends on how much you use, may be someone will give us an average sum?]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33754#Comment_33754 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33754#Comment_33754 Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:27:23 +0100 Ed Davies
Green Building Bible, 3rd edition, Volume I, page 92 says domestic energy consumption is divided as:

Space heating: 78%
Water heating: 11%
Lighting: 4%
Other electrical: 7%

so that puts space heating at seven times water. Quite a range to choose from.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33756#Comment_33756 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33756#Comment_33756 Fri, 26 Sep 2008 07:19:47 +0100 joe.e Posted By: mikeyb_leedsI could do both but obviously there would be a longer payback for the solar.
I'm getting a quote soon. I will certainly ask if I can do both.
Lots of payback calculations that I've seen have been done using energy costs at today's prices, which is ridiculous when you think about it - we all know that energy costs are going to carry on going up, and probably quite steeply. If you extrapolate the energy cost increases of the last few years, payback times get dramatically reduced for any technology that doesn't require any energy to be bought in, eg solar, extra insulation. But the same approach increases the payback time for anything that does need you to carry on buying energy, eg the various types of heat exchanger. If you haven't already done so, try calculating the payback times with a 10% annual increase in energy costs (or whatever figure seems plausible to you). 10% year on year changes things very fast!]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33789#Comment_33789 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33789#Comment_33789 Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:22:52 +0100 mrswhitecat
- Mitsubishi Electric are organising Ecodan seminars. I was planning on going to the one on 22/9 to see the thing in action but didn't because in the meantime I've 'gone off' Ecodan. You'll be wondering why.

- Ecodan is sold as a packaged (optimised so it all works together) bundle. (I believe) the bundle includes a Gledhill Boilermate and I've seen Gledhill rubbished on this forum.
- There is no bolt on option for solar (see above).
- I'm specifying for France. They are all the rage with French plumbers at the moment (they love them - marketed as Zubadan) particularly with UFH and if you want some element of cooling as well. Cooling would be good for me, but where I'm located, solar is an absolute no brainer.
- The version 'out' at the moment is 9kW. They will launch a 14kW version later in the autumn. My build will require a 14kW version, so when available is an issue for me.
- If I am to go the air source heat pump route, the 'package' that more closely meets my needs is the Daikin Alterma. They have a solar option. Daikin don't actually manufacture the solar panels - just rebadge them but they're chosen to work with their bundle. Unfortunately the solar panels chosen by Daikin are all flat panel and I have my heart set on evac tubes.
- Another issue discussed with the plumber is that in the Ecodan the heat exchanger is in the external condensing unit -> distance away from the house, insulation issues ??? With Daikin, it's inside.

It might be worth your going on one of these seminars? Perhaps report back to the forum what you can glean apart from the hard sell?]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33800#Comment_33800 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33800#Comment_33800 Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:53:52 +0100 davidHarris ]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33986#Comment_33986 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=33986#Comment_33986 Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:07:52 +0100 mikeyb_leeds
Thanks for all your comments.

Some more thoughts about the ECODAN.

First Tony’s comment about “free” solar, yes it would be free but solar only supplies about
50% of your hot water year round. If anyone has any better figures for this please let me know.

Doing some simple calculations based on last winters quarter it works out that the
ECODAN would be about £207 more expensive !
This is because a kWh of gas is ~3.21p compared to 16.14p for electric.
I.e. More than 3 times as expensive, and the Ecodan only improves efficiency by 3 times.

The actual figures would be slightly less as my current boiler is inefficient and
I’m adding lots of insulation everywhere (cavity wall etc).

So I think I’m going to stick with solar water.

Here are my calculations, based on today’s rates, just in casee someone spots a simple school boy error !

Energy (kWh) Units £/unit % efficiency Total
Electric 2747 0.1614 £443.37
Gas 23176 0.0321 £743.95
Total £1,87.32

Electric 25923 0.1614 300% £1,394.64

Difference £207.33

Hope this helps anyone else interested.

By the way it looks like a much better deal if you just use electricity but if you use
storage heaters you need to factor in your economy 7 electricity rate.

Mike]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=34243#Comment_34243 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=34243#Comment_34243 Wed, 01 Oct 2008 23:25:20 +0100 albyota I have just taken the 90% WB greenstar 18-22Kw Condensing Oil boiler out and sold it, and am having the Ecodan 9 kW installed next week, will be running it via the FTC flow temperature controller through my UFH up and downstairs, 4 Bed timber frame house with lots of insulation, will post monthly reports on running cost etc. if the Ecodan is fitted with the Gledhill 'Boilermate' (not sure how good this is) the electric immersion heaters do the bit from 55 degrees to 70+ for Rads. if heating a 170 - 210 litre tank of water from about 12 degrees to 55 by electric element costs (at 10p a kW unit) then 3kW for 2 hours = 60 - 80 pence a go. the ecodan would heat to 55 at a COP of 3.4 which would cost approx 17p - 23p. the water needs to be heated to above 65 degrees once a week to eliminate legionella. will accept any corrections to my calcs.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=34252#Comment_34252 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=34252#Comment_34252 Thu, 02 Oct 2008 08:53:04 +0100 jezza22
I've been doing my ASHP homework and the ecodan was one of the first I looked at. I like the fact it is pared with a gledhill thermal store but I'm not sure this store is any good... I dont like the heat exchanged being outside. I dont think it uses 410A either... I'm now looking at trianco activair, 12kw for about £2200 and it uses 417A (later version of 410A). I'd couple this to a DPS thermal store.

The latest refrigerant and inverter technology can save up to 70% on running costs so make sure you get both.

Also, air to air heat pumps look like a great idea like the hitachi RAC-35YH5 Inverter Heat Pump System - R410a for about £550 giving 5kw of heat output!]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=34279#Comment_34279 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=34279#Comment_34279 Thu, 02 Oct 2008 15:33:08 +0100 albyota Hope this helps]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=35938#Comment_35938 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=35938#Comment_35938 Tue, 21 Oct 2008 09:59:48 +0100 Jailhouse John
My wife is insistent that she retains the aga for cooking and as this also heats the hot water sufficient for us with emmersion heater back up when the hordes descend to visit. So whilst I realise that retaining the oil fired aga is not the most economical way to proceed I will just have to lump the 2 fuel costs unfortunately.

I have been impressed with what I have read on the interwebby about Ecodan and MHI are a huge international cooperation with a decent reputation so I am relatively confident that the product will do what it says on the tin however I am very concerned that the noise levels will cause problems with our tetchy neighbours who complain at the slightest thing (they reported the previous 90 year old lady owner for having a sky dish installed without LBC).

The installer reckons that the units together will produce about 50dcb of noise and they will be fitted in our open to air cart sheds about 25m away from our neighbours. What do you guys think will be noise annoyance factor?]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=35974#Comment_35974 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=35974#Comment_35974 Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:03:15 +0100 mrswhitecat https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=35994#Comment_35994 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=35994#Comment_35994 Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:14:03 +0100 funcrusher
A hedge is irrelevant. Noise attenuation is too complex a subject for this post, but essentially you need to site in a heavy masonry chamber with silencers fitted to air intakes /outlets, ande these pointed away from neighbours, to have any chance.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=36190#Comment_36190 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=36190#Comment_36190 Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:12:53 +0100 Jailhouse John
I had understood that 45db was the equivalent of a 'quiet office' and had hoped that the subsequent nuisance factor of the Ecodans would be minmal - but probably not so according to what you say.

Its hard being 'green']]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=50710#Comment_50710 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=50710#Comment_50710 Sun, 22 Mar 2009 23:07:25 +0000 pollardspark
First the system does work, heat is collected from the outside, even at sub-zero. Noise is not an issue - it is a very acceptable level. However, the good news ends there. It is a new technology and a chose a local installer from those approved by Mitsibushi on a list they supplied. The dealer also featured in their publicity brochure and video. I am a pensioner and have no heating knowledge and had to rely on the installer, particularly with the Mitsibushi recommendation behind him.

I now appreciate how important it is that heat loss calculations are carried out on the property for a retro fit. It has become very clear in hindsight, that this was not done and that the heat pump is under size. My house is well protected with cavity wall, double glazing and well insulated loft, but the installer failed to do the basics, although I gave him all the room sizes when he surveyed the property. The heat runs through the system (assuming a correct size Ecodan) at 55 degrees, instead of around 70 for a oil/gas installation. Therefore, all radiators have to be changed to increase the surface area by about a third.

In addition to an undersized system - the warmest the lounge has got through the winter is 17, on coldest days 14 - the Ecodan comes packaged with a Gledhill tank. This has been nothing but a problem. It is difficult to program times, but more importantly we have had trouble with elements of it, including needing new printed circuit boards and being without any heating or hot water for a week while they were replaced.

My advice, is look very carefully, if it is a retro fit. Check out the installer (I thought I had since Mitsibushi featured them so strongly) and be very careful to look close at the unit which comes with the air pump. This unit drives the whole process and is the 'brains' of the system. Additionally, since it will become a sealed system under mains pressure, you have to be very sure of all joints etc in the existing system – we found this out the hard way!

Despite visits from the installer and Mitsubishi (supposedly their top man on Ecodan/Gledhill) no significant improvements have been achieved – though some tinkering with the system has gone on to very minor effect. My wife and I have suffered chest colds all winter and have been ill, we are now seriously looking at facing the cost of replacing the Ecodan with oil during the summer. We cannot have another winter like the last.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=52783#Comment_52783 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2604&Focus=52783#Comment_52783 Mon, 27 Apr 2009 08:21:54 +0100 unguided1 sorry to hear your tale. I have been installing heat pumps for over 6 months now so this is still new terratory for me.
Retrofitting ashps can be a problem as you have found and in your particular case it would appear that the representives of the company have been unscrupules in their claims and have undersized the pump for your needs. If I were in your position I would go back to Mitsubishi and insist that they install a ashp that is fit for purpose.
Mitsubishi have spent Millions on advertising and like all companies they will not enjoy bad press. if they refuse to help, contact the national papers and then see what happens.
Regards
Mike]]>