Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Your Cart  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories

GBEzine

Get a whole year of 'key' Green Building info for an early-bird price of just £7.00+ VAT*

1 year Green Building Ezine

Built upon 30 years of experience, this fabulous new medium will feature inspiring and in-depth articles on eco-building projects from across the spectrum and from all over the UK, most of which are written by the very people that designed or built them.

Perfect for architects, builders, developers, self builders and anyone interested in keeping right up-to-date with green building trends and friends.

Price: £7.00

Discount books are also available with your first year subscription:



*VAT will only be charged to customers with a UK address.

For institutional access
please go here



Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




    • CommentAuthortwenty2one
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2008 edited
     
    This may be covering a topic from a while back, but I couldn't find the answer I was looking for.

    I'm building an insulated internal larder in a kitchen for general food storage. At the moment I have a 100mm diam. vent entering the bottom of the larder (screened to keep out unwanted guests). The internal volume of the larder is approx. 1.8 cubic meters. My questions are: will the larder keep cool and 'aired' just with the one vent? or will in be much better to make top vent too?

    The reason for asking what may seem a 'no brainer' of a question is that the top vent (if made) is not on the same wall as the bottom vent and will involve some "imaginative" construction - although possible, I'd like to make sure that it is worth while before making it.

    Many thanks in anticipation of you comments.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2008
     
    Better with a top vent too. When you say internal do you mean on an outside wall? Then uninsulate the wall and have it on the north side of the house for best results. Then insulate the larder so that it does not cool the house ( making itself warm ) totally outside would be better.
    • CommentAuthorpatrick
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2008
     
    use a metal upper vent and paint it black to get better air flow during the day. But make sure that you are not drawing in warm air.
  1.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: tony</cite>Better with a top vent too. When you say internal do you mean on an outside wall? Then uninsulate the wall and have it on the north side of the house for best results. Then insulate the larder so that it does not cool the house ( making itself warm ) totally outside would be better.</blockquote>

    Yes it's on an outside wall (NW side) and it's insulated so as not to cool the house (or the house to heat the larder) - unfortunately I can't site it outside. And now I will build it with a Top vent too.

    Many thanks for all the advice - cheers!
    • CommentAuthorcaliwag
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2008
     
    Always fancied a real larder. I would say you need to create the space with dense masonry...say slate/granite work top off-cuts for example (our granite work-top is always cold to the touch, even in high summer!)
    So dense masonry walls and shelves, vent bottom and top (ceiling) and an insulated door to the rest of the house. Should, in the NE or NW corner stay cool...maybe 10c...great for veg, cheese, pickles etc etc
    The peak oil forum has some further thoughts on such things...mainly from a survival point of view it has to be said.
    • CommentAuthorBluemoon
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2008
     
    I want a cool larder in my planned Scandinavian wooden house. It amazes me that whilst it says on most foodstuff containers "Store in a cool dry place", yet most of us have little option but to keep it in a warm, steamy kitchen!
    • CommentAuthorludite
    • CommentTimeOct 11th 2008
     
    I'm thinking a 'larder' is the retro 'way of the future'. I wouldn't be surprised if all new builds soon have a larder in the same way they used to have an outside toilet or a coal store. In the home of my dreams I am coming round to the fact that my the most used entrance/porch will be also be the wash room, with a larder 'uninsulated' on one side and an entrance to the 'insulated' house on the other.
    • CommentAuthorRachel
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2008
     
    I have built in a larder in the north side of my straw bale house. It isn't vented yet, but plan to. Inside it is a very large rock with flat surface which I put my milks and cheeses on. It works very well. No fridge.
    • CommentAuthorludite
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2008
     
    Hi Rachel. Is your larder insulated? (to keep it cool in the summer) Is it joined to the house or a separate building? How many days at a time did your milk last for this summer? What is the floor made of? Sorry, so many questions all at once. Don't mean to bombard you.

    What do the panel think of partially/totally burying the 'larder'?

    Do I guess right, that by venting the store the draught will keep the room cooler and reduce moisture?
    • CommentAuthoradwindrum
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2008
     
    What is the solution for a vented larder in an airtight house? And houldnt we have 2 larders - a cool store one on the north wall and a general store that can be "house temp" for convenience.
    • CommentAuthorRachel
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2008
     
    It's not very insulated... only by a straw bale wall from the north, outside. The floor is insulated with both slate and limecrete on top.It is part of the house, next to the lobby and the kitchen.Milk lasted a couple of days in the summer. I do also have a hole in the ground in my lobby that I am intending to use also for cool storage. Yes, venting from outside is a good idea... just will have to keep the larder door closed...
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2008
     
    How about: two radiators, one in the larder and one outside above the inside one, exposed to the air and, perhaps, the cold sky, but shaded from the sun. They'd be plumbed together so when the outside one is cooler (e.g., at night) convection takes heat out. When the outside air is warmer convection stops. Would need antifreeze but no pump.

    Somewhat like the four mile island heat pipe ice box but a bit less extreme.

    http://fourmileisland.com/IceBox.htm
    • CommentAuthorRachel
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2008
     
    I think a vent will do..
    • CommentAuthorhowdytom
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2008
     
    neat idea Ed
  2.  
    Is there any point trying to create a cool larder on a south facing wall?

    I have a press cupboard where the stone wall is thinner, and it already has one vent where the to-be-relocated boiler flue exits. Aerogel could provide the insulation to the door and sides, and some slate for the shelves. Worth a try? (This is Edinburgh so maybe it has potential for a good portion of the year!)
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2015
     
    North facing may be and outside the thermal envelope.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2015 edited
     
    If you insulate the wall, don't you run the risk that the larder will just be closer to the internal temperature?

    Edit, just reread your question, I am talking rubbish.

    Give it a go, you could try some temporary insulation (a couple of old duvets, blankets) and see what happens.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2015
     
    Obvious question but how much sunlight does that south facing wall get? Is it shaded for much of the day?

    If it's shaded then might well be worth a go. If not then, at the times of year when it would be most valuable [¹] it likely won't work. During the winter you'll need some heating anyway so you might as well use a fridge to provide some of that and not compromise the thermal envelope of the flat.

    [¹] Summer. I think that was yesterday in Caithness.
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2015
     
    Posted By: WeeBeastieIs there any point trying to create a cool larder on a south facing wall?

    I have a press cupboard where the stone wall is thinner, and it already has one vent where the to-be-relocated boiler flue exits. Aerogel could provide the insulation to the door and sides, and some slate for the shelves. Worth a try? (This is Edinburgh so maybe it has potential for a good portion of the year!)

    What temperature is it in there as it stands, and how does that compare with the temperature in the house just outside it?
    Does the wall get a lot of sun?
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2015 edited
     
    In Burgundy it's common to have above ground "cellars" for long term wine storage. Generally the target temp is 12C. Here's a recent build using straw, also note the shape: http://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2014/03/burgundy-made-better-by-egg-shaped-cellar/ . The older ones seem to work a lot by thermal mass - huge stone walls.
  3.  
    Hmm, yes the wall does get full sun. It's hard to tell what the temp is in the cupboard as the boiler is still in there at the moment. It's just as warm inside as outside the room today though (sunny!). I will probably stick with current arrangement with fruit & veg at the bottom of my unheated, north facing stairwell and get the exercise going up and down.
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2015
     
    Here's a clickable link to that wine cellar

    http://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2014/03/burgundy-made-better-by-egg-shaped-cellar/

    and some more pictures and explanation here:

    http://www.leoffdd.fr/fichiersprojetsok/51.pdf

    It's a nice looking project and an interestingly high target for internal RH - 80%!
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2015
     
    Sorry, forgot about the links.

    The reason for the RH is that corks need to be kept at a decent humidity to avoid them drying out and letting in too much oxygen.

    That's why a lot of older bottles have mould on the labels. I don't have a passive cellar, I have a wine fridge, but even that keeps a humidity level.
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2015
     
    Posted By: gravelldThe reason for the RH is that corks need to be kept at a decent humidity

    Yes, it's the confidence in design in exposing the straw to that humidity (behind clay plaster and timber of course). After all our worrying about wet rot and all the rest in floors and walls, to see somebody deliberately set out to expose organic materials to pretty high humidity is reassuring. :devil:
Add your comments

    Username Password
  • Format comments as
 
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press