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Housing - Renovation: External insulation - any pitfalls?

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    • CommentAuthorPeter Clark
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2009 edited
     
    Looks like in Ireland a homeowner may be eligible for a grant of 4000 Euros for external wall insulation - thats about £3600:

    http://www.sei.ie/Grants/Home_Energy_Saving_Scheme/HES_FAQ/Homeowner%20FAQ/#avail

    I don't think such help is available in UK, is it?

    What is the opinion of the forum, is this likely to be made available in the near future in UK?

    Peter
  2.  
    there was mention of UK grants for EX-ins a while back , under some scheme on this site , either under a external insulation heading or insulation grants , cant remember sorry
  3.  
    Thanks James,

    I found some generally discouraging posts here:

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=1899&page=2

    But some slightly more encouraging (2011 maybe) in respect of CESP - Community Energy Savings program:

    http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/open/cesp/cesp.aspx

    Peter
    • CommentAuthorsinnerboy
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2009 edited
     
    The SEI grants are conditional - the systems must have IAB certification - specifically for refurbishments
    At the time of the start of the grants system early on this years there was only such system . Subsequently Weber moved quickly to amend their existing certification to include refurbs ( previously it stated new builds ) .

    The SEI stance is reasonable - tax money must be spent properly and IAB ( BBA equivalent ) sets a quality threshold

    So
    Pitfall 1 - does the system you are looking have certification pertinent to the application ? New / Existing

    Pitfall 2. Earlier this year , one of system providers - can't recall which one now - altered their certification to remove phenolics from the choices of insulation types . Holding on that thought notice that If you approach Kingspan about their EWI board and ask them ANYTHING about anything other than their own board product - ( fixings, lathings , renders ) - well don't expect much help

    Pitfall 3 . Even with the cert document in front of you - be careful of the details . By that I mean the Technical Architectural Detailing

    For example - this cert geared specifically towards refurbs

    http://www.nsai.ie/modules/certificates/uploads/pdf/IAB090332.pdf

    Turn to pages 6+ 7

    The jamb detail would be improved enormously if the window was repositioned outwards so it aligned with the insulation layer . If analysed using Therm or similar ( which I have not done ) one may even find that the suggested deatil here may lead to surface or interstial condensataion

    The cill and eaves details are GAURENTEED to lead to localised condensation - no need for Therm here
    The existing cill must be first cut flush with the block and the window moved forward
    And the eaves detail .... well just imagine how the uninsulated wallplate / top block course would be affected if the EWI is stopped below the roof soffit . The soffit must be removed for the EWI insulation to be made continuous with the roof insulation .
    • CommentAuthorsinnerboy
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2009
     
    Just checked - these new kids on the block have addressed the issues better - the cill could be improved further imo

    http://www.nsai.ie/modules/certificates/uploads/pdf/IAB090336rev1.pdf
    • CommentAuthorsinnerboy
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2009 edited
     
    Oh - costs - in Ireland budget €100m2 wall area using EPS and €110 if using Rockwool . ( 100mm thick )
    That was during boom . Mind you the SEI grant may work to keep the rate up - grants always get "swallowed" in this way * . Measure through windows to cater for reveals + cills detailing
    even factoring in €/£ variation the costs mentioned earlier in the thread seem high .



    *off topic rant - no more grant aid for renewables - this artificially inflates consumer costs for solar panels etc etc etc
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2009
     
    I was rung up by NBT who told that if I was getting prices above £75-90/m2 fixed, I was being ripped off! I have yet to seek a quote to substantiate that, but coming from a higher-priced provider (wood fibre and lime render instead of the usual EPS and patent render) that seemed interesting. Certainly, the old days when EWI was only from specialists, is gone - it's now a main-contractor commodity item.
  8.  
    Hi,
    No matter how specialised or bespoke anyhting is, everything get comodotised - eventually. Not sure if that is a real word but it happens anyway.
    Cheers
    Mike up North
  9.  
    I met an NBT rep on site 2 months ago who suggested that I should expect £100/m2. Could I get him to talk to your person, Fostertom?!!
  10.  
    I'm going for £55m2, EPS + thro-colour render with light weight mesh all in.
    I'll let you know if I drop a clanger in a week or 2 , if I can get my hand on the stuff that is
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2009
     
    James, hard to get a handle on this. Does that include for scaffolding, working above height regulations, wet weather etc. etc.? £60/m2 is easy without the former
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2009
     
    And James, is that a materials-only price?
    • CommentAuthorPeter Clark
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2009 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertomI was rung up by NBT who told that if I was getting prices above £75-90/m2 fixed


    presumably that is m2 of wall surface?

    If so ,should i include window/door area?

    And for the whole caboodle - scaffolding etc?

    Posted By: sinnerboy*off topic rant - no more grant aid for renewables - this artificially inflates consumer costs for solar panels etc etc etc


    As an amateur and committed cynic, this makes sense to me, installers will just add the grant aid to the cost and take that money for themselves?

    Peter
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2009
     
    Posted By: Peter Clarkpresumably that is m2 of wall surface?

    If so ,should i include window/door area?
    It's customary to ignore/include the window areas (assuming average-%age window area) as the missing EPS/render pays for the extra work forming reveals etc.

    Posted By: Peter ClarkAnd for the whole caboodle - scaffolding etc?
    Yes, that's yet to be checked.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2009 edited
     
    Just got my material quote in , so I think I'll have to make the price higher
    Not really a clear picture though for pricing external insulation , but job is 90m2 Meshed thro-colour render 55m2 on 60mm EPS insulation , 35m2 on block ,Trying to get external walls to U=0.25 (AECB silver) yes it could be better but this doesn't involve resetting verges etc.
    material for above about £28m2
    working out at £62m2 all in , scaffolding etc. It'll be me and my usual plasterer doing the work + a labourer
    Trying to do it as cheap a possilbe whilst still earning my normal rates
    done this kind of stuff before as a subby/labour a while back , but that was just on day rates.

    Saint, do you anyone that wants to pay you for sitting in the rain?
    when I was a subby, some days we'd leave about 6.00 am drive a hour and half to a job to see what the weather was up to, have a cup of tea, then drive home again, get back about 11.00 one tank of diesel worse off and no money earn't that day. I always presumed that was the name of the game.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2009
     
    Posted By: jamesingramworking out at £62m2 all in , scaffolding etc. It'll be me and my usual plasterer doing the work + a labour
    That means scaffolding's included in the £62/m2? - but what about the labour - is that included? Any idea how much £/m2 is added by using thicker EPS? (60 is thin, in my book).

    Interesting that the usual thing of diminishing returns (reducing heat loss) from paying for incremental extra thicknesses of insulation, doesn't really apply to EWI. The render, half the total price, is the same whatever the insulation thickness; and labour is about half the remaining price for the insulation itself, and again is much the same whatever the insulation thickness. So the material cost of the insulation is only about a quarter of the total, and halving or doubling its thickness makes relatively little difference to the total cost. So go for max possible thickness!
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2009 edited
     
    sorry I meant +a labourer , not "+ a labour"

    All in , as in labour and materials , like I mentioned, i'm trying to do it at a good fair price
    perhap £75+m2 would be more realistic

    60mm EPS (from render supplier , have to buy the lot of them for warranty) around £5m2
    60mm PHS around £13.50m2
    a bit pricey in my mind

    totally agree about the opposite law of diminishing returns in regard to EWI , other than when the additonal thickness requires additional costs of moving verges,external pipe work, sofit width restrictions etc
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2009
     
    I agree with going for the maximum thickness of insulation.
    • CommentAuthorarthur
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2009
     
    "I believe that old terraces etc should be (government funded) seriously draught stripped and have MHVR installed.".

    Is it possible to ever get old victorian houses airtight enough to justify MHVR?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2009
     
    Whyever not?
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2009 edited
     
    Yes 60mm is rather thin , could possibly push it to 70mm , without additional costs over and above additonal insulation the final decision lies with my customer. 100-200mm+ would make real sense , if you're going to do it
    right
    Whats the thoughts on using EPS or PHS( phenolic board) is it worth the extra 18% overall cost increase for PHS
    U values 1/3 lower for PHS , but I've been lead to believe reducing U values of materials does not result in a linear
    reduction in heat loss?
    I'm concerned about points raised regarding gases leaking out of the PUR/PIR/PHS
    boards over time making them similiar to EPS/XPS in regard to U value , also there's the additional enviromental impact of production of PUR/PHS boards compared to EPS to consider ?
    My original plan was to use standard 60mm PUR board , but the render supplier wont give warranty unless I buy the full kit from them.
    cheers Jim
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2009
     
    The EPS usually used for EWI is the 'Platinum' type, greyish or silvery, rather than the pure-white basic type. Basic has so-so lamda value of 0.039; Platinum has 0.031, not far off the foamed plastics, which as Jim says are suspected of eventually degrading to that value.

    Both kinds of EPS are fairly eco-virtuous, all the foamed plastics considerably less so. EPS is satisfactorily water-vapour-permeable, the foamed ones not at all. EPS can't be used in waterlogging conditions e.g. for u/ground downstand insulation; unfortunately the closed-cell foamed plastics have to be used for that.

    Then there's wood-fibre!
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2009
     
    Jim, If you're looking for 0.025W/m2K on a 9" solid wall then 60mm EPS is going to fall some way short. You'll need approximately 130mm standard grade, 110mm Platinum.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2009 edited
     
    its over a brick / 75mm blown mineral wool filled cavity / brick wall
    condensation risk came up ok (ish) on builddesk

    I worked it out at approx U= 0.24 with PUR (celotex) taking the cavity as only 50mm due to possibly not fully filled

    haven't checked with EPS yet
    as Builddesks no longer free

    Ps. just had a look on a simple U calculator,

    U= 0.3 render/60mm EPS/brick/50mm filled cavity/brick
    or
    U=0.25 render/60mm EPS/brick/75mm filled cavity/brick
    (EPS lambda @ 0.037)
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2009
     
    Jim,
    Yes that would be the concern, the dew point is probably going to be between the cavity fill insulation and the EPS
    • CommentAuthorcaliwag
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2009
     
    Arthur says...

    "I believe that old terraces etc should be (government funded) seriously draught stripped and have MHVR installed.".

    Is it possible to ever get old victorian houses airtight enough to justify MHVR?

    Agree entirely, and people that have MHVR seem entirely happy with the kit, particularly the increase in air quality, but sadly it doesn't seem to fall within the governments radar. A lack of coherent lobbying from the industry perhaps!
  27.  
    Saint , 'builddesk' showed winter condensation risk , correcting itself in the summer .
    I've made effort to seal the cavity as much as possible to help reduce risk
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2009
     
    What do the fire regs say about materials/detailing?
  29.  
    djh - unsure , do you think its something to be concerned about ?
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2010 edited
     
    following on from my previous posts on costs
    did the job on day rate in the end. SE UK
    70mm EPS , acrylic mesh render 2 coat system ,90m2 all in came to £85/m2

    EWI materials £ 28m2
    Other material costs £ 10m2
    labour £47m2

    the job was 55m EWI with acrylic render 35m just arcylic render
    the 35m required a key coat and a leveling coat which took a similiar amount of time as fixing the EWI
    so I think it fair to say if we'd insulated that also costs would have been similiar

    Spent quite a bit of time getting use to the system , render take up times etc
    so I think labour cost will reduce on the next job
    As it was all done at cost any potential labour savings would probably have to go toward
    contingencies , profit and offsite costs
    so I think the £85m2 + figure seems quite fair for a non-specialist jobbing builder with low overheads
    increased thickness as mentioned would not effect the material costs greatly until you get to
    having to adjust other part of the building to allow for it .
    cheers Jim

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