Housing - Renovation: Thermal blinds

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- CommentAuthorecohome
- CommentTimeFeb 4th 2011
I thought you might like an update! The Retrofit for the Future projects have all been delayed, for a variety of reasons, but finally things are moving & I have a first order placed. The delay has given me time to undertake some critical redesigns & I'm now no longer importing the blinds but am making a completely new type in the UK

The blinds now use powerful magnets stitched inside instead of the track, with partner magnets glued to the existing frame (or a subframe). They also have much improved aluminium header tracks with chain drives instead of dangling cords. I've done some testing which identify considerable temperature drops through the blind as you can see on the website - now trading as 'The Thermal Blind Company'.

I'll let you know how it goes when I finally have something other than just the prototype installed. Thanks for all your critical comments, much appreciated.

Incidentally there has been a really good report written comparing DG, shutters & heavy curtains by Dr Paul Baker at Glasgow Caledonian Uni - see http://www.climatechangeandyourhome.org.uk/live/research_generic.aspx & http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/thermal_performance_of_traditional_windows_2010.pdf (NB downloads)
- CommentAuthorJT101
- CommentTimeFeb 21st 2012
Fantastic report.

“Draught proofing….reducing the air leakage by 86%”. “Secondary glazing was the most effective overall option, as it reduced heat loss through the window by 63%.
Timber shutters are the most effective option of the traditional methods, reducing heat loss by 51%; curtains
reduced heat loss by 14%; a Victorian roller blind reduced heat loss by 28%; a modern roller blind reduced heat
loss by 22%. The greatest reductions in heat loss came from combining these measures (i.e. blinds, shutters and
curtains all closed) and by adding extra insulation to these options. Using secondary glazing, or combinations
of blind and shutters, reduced the U value of the window to below 2 W/m2K, which is the maximum U value
allowed by Scottish Building Standards for timber or uPVC windows in new dwellings with an energy efficient
boiler.”

So why on earth would I use a modern roller blind? Presumably it is a cheap modern blind compared with a thicker better quality victorian blind. And super thermal blinds were not used.............
- CommentAuthorowlman
- CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2012
Very interesting James, no mention it seems of external insulated roller shutters, of the type so often seen on the Continental mainland. I still can't understand why they seem to have largely bypassed the UK building industry.
- CommentAuthordavidfreeborough
- CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2012 edited
Posted By: owlmanVery interesting James, no mention it seems of external insulated roller shutters, of the type so often seen on the Continental mainland. I still can't understand why they seem to have largely bypassed the UK building industry.
It's not surprising that they don't feature in documents prepared for English Heritage & Historic Scotland!

Although external shutters are a technically good solution they do look rather industrial to UK eyes. They can fit in well with a modern apartment complex, but don't fit so well with a typical mock-tudor/georgian developers house in the UK.

They are also a pain to open every morning, much more work than opening curtains. And because of their security benefit there's a feeling that you can't leave the house without closing them all. So you tend to spend 10 minutes before you leave & 10 minutes every time you get home opening/closing them.

In addition, there's the practical problem that if they are not electrically operated or operated by an internal strap or chain then the windows need to open inward, where as the convention in the UK is for windows to open outwards.

David
- CommentAuthortombuild.com
- CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2012
I have just made some for a client - Internal shutters that is.
Bifold shutters made by sandwiching 25mm of polystyrene between thin teak tea chest plywood, all held together with a wooden frame routered out to accommodate the ply and insulation. They are very warm, attractive, easy to use, block all draughts, cost very little and don't contain any metal (except for the hinges) so in my mind are a better environmental choice than any commercial product. They have been installed in a bathroom and have no moisture / condensation problems.
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2012
Posted By: davidfreeboroughThey are also a pain to open every morning, much more work than opening curtains.

I've only used one set, in Geneva. They were very easy to use; just pull a flexible tape that runs down the side of the window; pull it up to close. I imagine it wouldn't do a lot for the airtightness, though I didn't notice any drafts.

Posted By: tombuild.comI have just made some for a client - Internal shutters that is.

Excellent. Well done!
- CommentAuthorowlman
- CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2012
Posted By: djh...........I've only used one set, in Geneva. They were very easy to use; just pull a flexible tape that runs down the side of the window; pull it up to close. I imagine it wouldn't do a lot for the airtightness, though I didn't notice any drafts.

I've used them in also Germany Dave, I didn't find it at all onerous. Admittedly as David says there is the question of inward opening windows. When the roller is enclosed and hidden inside the supporting window lintle it's visual impact is negligible, and the controls don't exit the house envelope.
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2012
Posted By: owlmanPosted By: djh...........I've only used one set, in Geneva. They were very easy to use; just pull a flexible tape that runs down the side of the window; pull it up to close. I imagine it wouldn't do a lot for the airtightness, though I didn't notice any drafts.

I've used them in also Germany Dave, I didn't find it at all onerous. Admittedly as David says there is the question of inward opening windows. When the roller is enclosed and hidden inside the supporting window lintle it's visual impact is negligible, and the controls don't exit the house envelope.

Used them a lot in Switzerland and they were always quick and easy to operate. They make a huge difference to the warmth of the building. Never understood why windows in GB open outwards. If the open inwards they are more secure and can be left open even during rain.

I am just knocking together internal shutters using 12mm birch plywood for my place in Scotland.

Jonti
- CommentAuthorEd Davies
- CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2012
House I'm renting has tilt and turn inward opening windows. I put wooden blinds up. They don't pull up high enough to allow the windows to be opened. Doh!

Ceiling prevents them being any higher.

Other than that, inward opening windows are great for cleaning and so on.
- CommentAuthortombuild.com
- CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2012
The one enormous problem with inward opening windows is you hit your head on them. Especially when installing flooring in the middle of a hot french summer. You also loose usable space as you have to allow for the windows i.e. you cannot place a sofa under the windows or use the sill as a shelf.
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012
Posted By: tombuild.comThe one enormous problem with inward opening windows is you hit your head on them. Especially when installing flooring in the middle of a hot french summer. You also loose usable space as you have to allow for the windows i.e. you cannot place a sofa under the windows or use the sill as a shelf.

Correct Tom, though it would be unusual to need to open all the window at the sametime. Most people have just a few windows that they open regulary.

If you were installing a floor here in Blighty you need to wear a hard hat and erect scaffolding to comply with H&S

Jonti
- CommentAuthordavidfreeborough
- CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012 edited
Posted By: djhI've only used one set, in Geneva. They were very easy to use; just pull a flexible tape that runs down the side of the window; pull it up to close.
We lived in the south of France for 3 years where we had external wooden shutters. The house had 4 bedroom windows, a glass utility door & three sets of French windows all of which had external shutters. Every morning, you had to unlock window, open window, unlock shutter, clip shutter back to external wall, close window & lock window. It could easily take 10 minutes to do them all & you had to repeat it all before leaving the house.

Obviously if it was an apartment or the shutters could be operated from inside this would be a lot easier. However, I still don't like the feeling of being cut-off from outside & not being able to see what's going on in my own garden. They provide good protection from extreme events like rioting & stone throwing, but I think they encourage petty crime. Part of the reason, I think, why a lot of French houses have high walls/fences & electric gates at the front.

David
- CommentAuthorskyewright
- CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012
Posted By: Ed DaviesHouse I'm renting has tilt and turn inward opening windows.
[SNIP]
Other than that, inward opening windows are great for cleaning and so on.

There were inward opening T&T windows along our exposed WSW facing front when we bought the house. They leaked like sieves in really wet & windy weather. Over the years the leaks had caused the gear to corrode making the problem worse. In due course those frames were replaced and the replacements had 'normal' outward opening. There is something to be said for having windows that the force ot the wind tends to close rather than open.

Much later I read a comment from an ex-pat about fitting 2 sets of windows, UK outward opening on the outer skin and European inward opening inboard of the first set. It seemed like an interesting idea and I sort of wished I'd kept the old frames and tried something of the sort, until I recalled that the new windows were modern style (glazing fitted from the inside), but the old windows were old style (glazing fitted from the outside ), so installing the double layer would have been a chicken & egg problem...
- CommentAuthorCav8andrew
- CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012
skyewright, interesting to hear of your practical experience. It's always seemed counter intuitive to me to have inward opening windows for the very reasons you give. Have always thought that in moderately exposed positions outward windows would 'seat' and seal more effectively as wind pressure increased. My preference would probably be for top hung outward opening, which might gives some protection from a sudden downpour
- CommentAuthorskyewright
- CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012
Posted By: Cav8andrewMy preference would probably be for top hung outward opening, which might gives some protection from a sudden downpour

[aol]Me too.[/aol]
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012 edited
Inward opening T&T are easy to fit with 2 or more lines of airseal, if only because of their typically 'stormproof' style where the opening light lips inward over the fixed frame. T&T mechanisms pull tight against the seals as they close. That's why most PH grade windows are inward openers.

Typical outward opening windows only have one line of airseal, so there's only a couple of mm of rubber between inside and outside air. It's a miracle that such windows attain Uw 1.1.

'Stormproof' outward openers are a uniquely UK cheap-end style, in timber, so don't get the double airseal, tho it wd be easy. Except typical PVC windows are stormproof outward and may have double seals.

Inward vs outward opening isn't better or worse because wind pressure is coming from the outside, All seals are designed to seal tighter under air pressure, regardless of the frame direction.
- CommentAuthordavidfreeborough
- CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012
If the opening casement is to be drained & ventilated then it helps to have the casement outside the jamb & air seals & therefore outward opening. However, inward opening windows do allow installation with the minimum of thermal bridging, i.e. the wall insulation can be wrapped over the outer face.

David
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012
Posted By: davidfreeboroughthe wall insulation can be wrapped over the outer face.
With both inward or flush-face outward opening, the EWI can wrap inboard (almost) as far as the sash/frame joint - can't do better than that.

It only looks like that's wider with inward opening because IO frames tend to be wider on face because narrow in depth - the less frame wood on face, to be covered, the better.

True that 'stormproof' outward openers push the insulation back wider.
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012
Posted By: davidfreeboroughWe lived in the south of France for 3 years where we had external wooden shutters. The house had 4 bedroom windows, a glass utility door & three sets of French windows all of which had external shutters. Every morning, you had to unlock window, open window, unlock shutter, clip shutter back to external wall, close window & lock window. It could easily take 10 minutes to do them all & you had to repeat it all before leaving the house.

Right, but those aren't the insulated roller shutters that everybody else is discussing!
- CommentAuthordavidfreeborough
- CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012
Posted By: djhRight, but those aren't the insulated roller shutters that everybody else is discussing!
I think the same issues apply if they aren't electrically operated or operated by an internal strap or chain. All the roller shutters I've seen in the UK require manual operation & would need inward opening windows. Is someone importing the European types?

David
- CommentAuthorCav8andrew
- CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012
I certainly know of external shutters in UK, fitted for security reasons on a recording studio, which are motor driven and take no time at all to be opened/closed. If they could be built into external insulation/cladding rather than as a later add on they would be very unobtrusive when open.
- CommentAuthorJoiner
- CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012
There's a lot of money circulating out there!
- CommentAuthorJSHarris
- CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012
<blockquote><cite>Posted By: Cav8andrew</cite>I certainly know of external shutters in UK, fitted for security reasons on a recording studio, which are motor driven and take no time at all to be opened/closed. If they could be built into external insulation/cladding rather than as a later add on they would be very unobtrusive when open.</blockquote>

I rented a place in Portugal a few years ago that had motorised metal roller shutters integrated into the window reveals. When up all you saw was the base of the shutter, almost flush with the top of the reveal. It was a holiday place and not particularly lavishly equipped, so I wouldn't have thought they would have been that expensive. Seems a good idea if they could be well-insulated, although I found they worked well to keep heat from the sun out if left down during day when I was out and about with no insulation.
- CommentAuthorCav8andrew
- CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2012 edited
Joiner, There's a lot of recording equipment to be lost! and in terms of costs for several large windows it was not unreasonable.
I like the idea, for a domestic setting, of providing progressive shading.
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012 edited
Posted By: Cav8andrewThere's a lot of recording equipment to be lost! and in terms of costs for several large windows it was not unreasonable.

Venezuelan cork bark used to be trendy for lining the studios. One I saw had ten-layer glazing; not because of any eco-credentials but because it was next to a major roundabout. There was another very famous one built as an entirely-separate elastically-mounted box inside a building, because it was over the tube.
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012 edited
Posted By: JSHarrisSeems a good idea if they could be well-insulated

The main problem on most of them is the thermal bridge created by the storage box that is usually built in to the wall.
- CommentAuthorCav8andrew
- CommentTimeFeb 24th 2012
djh, there is a story, which is probably apocryphal, haven't ever been able to confirm with friends who have recorded there. When Peter Gabriel's Real World Studios first opened a major league band had recorded the major part of it's new album when on listening back to the tapes there was an intermittent but regular background rumble. They finally twigged it was the Inter city 125 flying past entering/exiting Box tunnel! This discovery lead to a major rebuild/isolation of the studio I believe similar to the system you describe. My friends studio has lots of geometric cloud like items suspended all over the ceiling (look like giant marshmallows) to break up the standing waves.
- CommentAuthorecohome
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2012
Yes Cav8andrew I think you are right - I worked on the building when at Feilden Clegg, the 'new' recording studio was built over the millpond & was acoustically separated & on foundation 'springs', but Peter wanted people to be able to record anywhere in the building, even the toilets! So the whole building was 'wired for sound'.
- CommentAuthorjamesingram
- CommentTimeNov 27th 2012 edited
How's things looking in the world of insulated blinds , any new break throughs

I'm looking for something for my patio doors and verticial blind would suit best for practicality , probably not thermal efficiency though.
Just searching around and noticed these various fancy scientific sounding fabrics , one claims to "pearlised backing refelcts up to 78% of the heat back into the room"
I presume that's just a load of old tosh
- CommentAuthorRobinB
- CommentTimeNov 27th 2012
How on earth would I measure it?

We have some of these and like them. They are neat, stack up small above the window and seem to work.

No connection with the company.

http://www.blinds-2go.co.uk/energy-saving-thermal-blinds.htm

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