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Housing - Renovation: Thermal blinds

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      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 27th 2012
     
    Sorry, Robin, some of what? There are various products on that page!

    Also, is there any way to see a useful picture of the products?
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeNov 27th 2012
     
    Oh sorry just scrolled down. I have the duoshade blinds which have a silver backing and trap a layer of air between the inner and outer face, but I see they do have a thermal vertical blind too. Clicking on a picture reveals more views including a useful side view and they did send me out prettily wrapped small samples for free.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeNov 27th 2012 edited
     
    Robin , Ha! that's just the lot I was looking at , obviously we've had a similar search engine journey :)

    http://www.blinds-2go.co.uk/vertical-blinds/3236/thermatex-warm-taupe.html
    click near bottom right corner for 'Test results' ?? :neutral:

    looking at the Duoshade they do seem to have more potential at energy saving than a standard flat design, wouldn't suit my patio door though.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 27th 2012
     
    Posted By: RobinBHow on earth would I measure it?
    I can measure almost anything.:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2012
     
    I know!
    • CommentAuthorecohome
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2012
     
    I can't see any 'test results' there? Is the sample interesting? Does it have insulating or mainly reflective qualities? Incidentally I am just about to celebrate making my 100th thermal (roman) blind! Its been quite a journey........ :smile:
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2012 edited
     
    ecohome , if you click on link then click on test results , just to the left of the large 78% lower down the page on the right , you get a small pop up list of claimed savings.
    give figures for transmitted and reflective 'potential' saving in %
    I'm scepticial , though I've not really the knowledge to prove them wrong.
    Just brought 2 to see how they go.
    • CommentAuthorecohome
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2012
     
    Ah yes, many thanks. It does seem very unlikely that only 3% of heat is transmitted through the blind. Look forward to your results.
  9.  
    The use of percentages on the test results page is particularly confusing. If the room were perfectly insulated & unheated then 100% of the heat would eventually leave via the window through a combination of conduction, convection & radiation. So they can only really be talking about instantaneous radiant heat.

    The interesting number is the one at the bottom of the table: the "Standard U value is 2.75 W/m2K". That's better than a single glazed window & worse than modern double glazing. However, its not clear whether this is the U value of the double glazed window they used for the test or the U value of the window/blind combination. If its the latter then the blinds aren't really doing much to reduce heat loss, although they may still help to improve comfort by providing a radiant barrier.

    David
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2012
     
    Curtains would do that!
    • CommentAuthorecohome
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2012
     
    I can't see how the blinds alone could possibly have that value, they must mean the combination surely? Its certainly not a transparent (sic) table, I wish they would show the workings! I realise that my approach to data sharing is probably quite unusual, mind you, for a manufacturer. I was hoping to use some iButtons to do more research on what is happening in terms of transmittance but have been ridiculously busy making blinds since it got cold!

    Are you planning some particular tests James?
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2012
     
    ecohome
    I think you know a lot more than the average blind seller, as well as being happy to share that knowledge!

    This is the link to the ones I bought. Presumably the U value for the blind of 2.3 is for the blind alone?
    http://www.blinds-2go.co.uk/images/duotherm-layout_r2_c1.jpg

    Actual measurements a few nights ago Outside about minus 4, inside of 3G behind blind 16.1, blind surface facing room 17.9, room air temp 19. I have two almost identical windows in the same room will have to test with one blind up and one down.
    • CommentAuthorecohome
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2012
     
    Some interesting claims there - "even with double glazing over 40% of heat can be lost through windows" (EST suggest 15 - 18%) - they quote a DG unit with u-value of 3.7W/sqm K but they use a 4mm g, 4mm air, 4mm g unit, & they claim "you could cut your heating bill by over 20%". hmmmmm

    So Robin the thermal drop through the blind was 1.8 deg C? I haven't tested mine on a triple glazed window! But on a single glazed one the drop was 12 deg C through the blind (19C internally & c -2C externally). I must get those iButtons & make one for one of our 3G windows!
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2012 edited
     
    Already mentioned(?) but honeycomb blinds were included in this study of solutions for improving the thermal performance of traditional windows:

    www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/thermal-windows.pdf
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2012
     
    Posted By: ecohomeSo Robin the thermal drop through the blind was 1.8 deg C? I haven't tested mine on a triple glazed window! But on a single glazed one the drop was 12 deg C through the blind (19C internally & c -2C externally). I must get those iButtons & make one for one of our 3G windows!


    Yep, I guess the triple glazing does most of the work. What I can't remember is how long the blind had been down before I measured. I'm not ST!
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: RobinBI'm not ST!
    Do it again!!

    To be honest you have to repeat it a minimum of 30 times and then you only have 18 results you can rely on (unless you want to an accuracy of greater that 95%).
    The arithmetic behind accuracy is pretty simple, doing thousands of tests is what takes the time, and that is quick compared to designing the experiment.
    • CommentAuthorecohome
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2012
     
    I've just got samples of the folding duoshade & the thermal vertical blind fabric. Will give my opinions in due course!

    Just arrived also is a huge (1.4 x 2.0) sample of both 2.5mm & 5mm Spaceloft aerogel in the post. It feels disgusting to touch, powdery & stays on your hands, so will be useless for blinds (& probably not flexible enough anyhow). Wondering what to do with it now - fill external door panels perhaps?
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaDo it again!!

    To be honest you have to repeat it a minimum of 30 times and then you only have 18 results you can rely on (unless you want to an accuracy of greater that 95%).

    When I have a bit more time I will and I'll try not to add unscientific measurements here again I should have known better. Sorry.

    I'd love a bit of aerogel where did you get it? Does is hold together by itself?
    If you can't decide perhaps you'd post it on the Offers and Wants section.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2012
     
    I touched Damon HD's aerogel, seemed to be a blue blanket filled with aerogel powder bonded to some plasterboard.
    Be interesting to see how just the blue blanket/plasterboard on its own performs thermally.
  20.  
    ecohome, its pretty versatile, i've got a wee stash of spaceloft (came out of my old surf van, but thats another story.....) that's come in handy for all kinds of odd stuff around the house! best not left exposed though....

    my issue with insulating blinds is convection, i'm sure an insulating blind is a bit better than a normal one, but unless it's sealed somehow to cut down convective losses i dont see it can make that much difference? now, floor length aerogel curtains..... :bigsmile:
  21.  
    Make your own aerogel http://www.aerogel.org/?cat=10
  22.  
    Posted By: ecohomeAre you planning some particular tests James?


    my ability to scientificly test things goes about as far as licking my finger and holding it up to the wind. :smile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: jamesingrammy ability to scientificly test things goes about as far as licking my finger and holding it up to the wind
    All I ever do but don't let on :wink:

    Posted By: Graeme Berrycame out of my old surf van, but thats another story.
    Quite a few surf vans down here, shall try and flog them insulation. Saw a lad walking back to his with a board snapped in half this afternoon :surfing:

    I did a little thermal test with my Wilkinson thermal blinds and found it is about as good as a pane of glass, that was without any sealing.
    I bought a sewing machine about a year back to make some that do seal. I have a great idea for some but keeping it to myself for the moment. And they will be machine washable and stick out no more than an inch as that is all the space I have when the door is open.
    Too many thing to do and so little time. Just spent two hours doing something I was meant to do 2 months back. Tomorrow I may tidy the front room, it is sadly neglected as I never sit in there.
    • CommentAuthorecohome
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2012
     
    Willing to chop up Aerogel & send some out if I can work out how to handle it without irritation (feels like toxic cornflour).

    Graeme, think I've cracked the convection with the edge seal - have done a prototype for a narrowboat (folding blinds & magnets, without a headrail) & measured up for a VW T2 - this one http://www.flickr.com/photos/coughdrop/8102663778/in/photostream

    Robin - the Aerogel is in rolls but if you touch it there is a powder which hangs around on your skin - I got it from enviroform solutions who cold emailed me.

    Steamy - you never told me you had a sewing machine! ;)
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 21st 2012
     
    All I need is a seamstress to work it when needed :bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 21st 2012 edited
     
    jamesingram wrote: "Make your own aerogel http://www.aerogel.org/?cat=10 "

    Amazing! And this too!

    http://www.buyaerogel.com/airloyx100/

    "Airloy™ X100 series materials from Aerogel Technologies are the world’s first commercially-available mechanically robust aerogels with the strength to stand up to real-world applications. Airloy X100 comes in densities up to fifteen times lighter than plastics (about the same density as our Classic Silica aerogels) yet is about 100x stronger in compression than classic aerogels and without the fragility of classic aerogels. Impervious to contact with moisture and liquid water. Dust-free. Provides 10-1000x better acoustic damping than traditional engineering materials over most audible frequencies. Easy to machine and adhere. Thermally superinsulating with a conductivity between classic silica aerogels and Styrofoam®. Maximum operating temperature is ~180°C."

    Just one snag: X103_L_Tile_5_cm_x_7_5_cm_x_7_mm $90.00 :cry:
    • CommentAuthorDianeBro
    • CommentTimeDec 29th 2012 edited
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: SteamyTea</cite>All I need is a seamstress to work it when needed<img title=":bigsmile:" alt=":bigsmile:" src="/forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/bigsmile.gif"></img></blockquote>

    Hey - I could help with that sewing stuff if we are local (which is doubtful I guess!)
    I'd be interested to see this washable thermal blind of which you speak.
    I have a bay window in my living room, double glazed and covered with a wood venetian blind.
    I'm beginning to realize that I may have to suffer curtains with a thermal rubber lining which you can get.
    But blinds are neater in a small room. A thermal blind I guess will be tough to make attractive..
    Ideally a thermal blind needs to be hung behind something nicer.. like the wartime blackout blinds. Boxed in at the sides?
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeDec 29th 2012 edited
     
    You're at least in the same general part of the country (making a few assumptions from a Google search). Steamy's down the stickyoutie bit bottom left of Bristol.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 29th 2012
     
    Posted By: Ed Daviesstickyoutie bit bottom left of Bristol.

    Yep
    Down the M5 to Exeter, turn right, 100ish miles along the A30, turn left, then over the two roundabouts, turn left, I am on the right :wink:
    We only have two roads here, if you get to Landsend, turn around and use the other road, and I will be on the left!
    • CommentAuthorecohome
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2013 edited
     
    <blockquote>
    Hey - I could help with that sewing stuff if we are local (which is doubtful I guess!)
    I'd be interested to see this washable thermal blind of which you speak.
    I have a bay window in my living room, double glazed and covered with a wood venetian blind.
    I'm beginning to realize that I may have to suffer curtains with a thermal rubber lining which you can get.
    But blinds are neater in a small room. A thermal blind I guess will be tough to make attractive..
    Ideally a thermal blind needs to be hung behind something nicer.. like the wartime blackout blinds. Boxed in at the sides?</blockquote>

    No, definitely not tough to make attractive! Lovely texture & ten colours available, really neat appearance. If you like swags you might think they are too plain! ...... looks like I'll be needing to recruit some seamstresses :wink:

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