Green Building Forum - LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

Dan McNeil — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:51:26 +0000

I appreciate there's a thread below on LED lighting, but can't see any answer to my question there.

Basically, we want to replace the energy hungry (not to mention stupidly hot - cooking is a nightmare, plus my hair regularly almost catches fire when I'm shaving) halogen GU10 lamps in out small low-ceilinged cottage. In the kitchen, we have 4 halogens on 2 units (so, total of 8 lamps, each halogen is rated at 50w). In the bathroom, we have 3 halogens, each at 30w. Can't find any conversion info on the net, and the peeps in Focus et. al have absolutely no idea.

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

joe.e — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:07:59 +0000

Are the fittings for the lights on rails - are you able to add more lamps if you need to? Or are you going to scrap the existing sytem and start again? I think I'd be inclined to buy a few LED GU10's and see how they look. It might take a few goes to find a model that produces a nice colour of light. I bought a couple of LED GU10's a while ago and concluded that I needed to wait a year or two then try again - they produced a really horrible, cold, morgue-like light.

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

JinMTVT — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:22:31 +0000

the only leds that have a correct CRI for interior use are from luxeon
i've tried warm white binnings of K2 for tests a few times
and i find their light comparable to regular halogen
(supposed to have a 85-90 CRI )

you will need to use a few of the high eff K2 to replace 1 halogen bulb,
they run for 2-3$/unit

DC operated, and you will need a dimming/voltage box if you want
to dim them without any impacting flicker

heatsinking will be an issue if you decide to run them at full power
but i prefer using them at 40-60% range, at wich heatsinking
is basic to do, and extend their life to 100K hours +

you really have to look for the correct color bining codes though

Advance electronics ( owned by Phillips ) make such dimmer/voltage box

expect to pay around 75$ for 1 box

hope that helps

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

Dan McNeil — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:38:44 +0000

Joe - the kitchen lights are on rails, not possible to add more than 4 per rail, so the short term plan is to simply replace the halogens on the rails with LEDs. Know what you mean re. morgue light...

JinMTVT - cheers for the info, I don't know what CRI means though.

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

JinMTVT — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:04:03 +0000

Color Rendering Index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index

of course it doesn't help that the halogen are the "mark" at 100% if you want to compare leds
but the recent leds are slowly getting to it

also to consider if you dont want to retrofit too much
are SSC Acriche LEDs
wich are 120 or 240v AC leds wich runs directly on regular 50/60hz AC
( they are in fact multiple smaller leds with seperate voltage and reverse to use the positive and negative charge of AC )
their warm white runs for around 15-20$ / unit
can be dimmed with regular PWM dimmer
and do not require any converter to run

they emit quite some heat at maximum capacity ( hard to heatsink )
but if you run them at 70-80% and less, it is then fairly easy to run them straight
their CRI is not on the very good side,
but is sufficient for work area ( kitchen and such )
i wouldn't use them for general lighting as they tend to show a bit too much
of the UV purple hue wich i do not personally enjoy much

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

CWatters — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:58:53 +0000

Posted By: Dan McNeil I can't find any conversion info on the net, and the peeps in Focus et. al have absolutely no idea.

Forget LEDs from the DIY stores. They simply aren't bright enough. There are currently very few off the shelf LED solutions and all have their quirks as others have mentioned. The best ready to install LEDs from that other thread appear to be these and I don't think they make a drop in replacement for halogen either (eg the fitting has to be changed).

http://www.realworlddesigns.co.uk/respondalight.php

Whatever you go for I strongly recommend you buy/borrow one and try it at home before you buy lots. Its very easy to fool yourself in a showroom.

As a guide...

A 50W halogen produces 900 lumens
A 35W halogen produces 600 lumens
Respondalight around 500 lumens I believe
DIY store LED 100-150 Lumens

but you also need to look at a bunch of other things.. the beam angle, the sharpness of the edge of the beam, the colour, dimming etc

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

JinMTVT — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:57:45 +0000

nice info

the luxeon leds produce around 130lm
but since you need to use a few of those to replace an equivalent 50W halogen ..u can get near the 500lm range pretty easily
and with a flower arrangement of the leds, u can get a pretty good diffusion of the light with a strong center focus beam

i wouldn't consider any commercial solution as viable for now
none of the mentinoned or available products meet requirements for home use right now

and you can't count on simply replacing halogen with led modules
since led needs more units, better heatsinking ( less heat tolerance )
and size to hit the same performance as halogen

i personally will lit my new house ( in the building ) at 90%+ with LEDS
wich will be dispersed over the ceiling in regular patterns over most areas of the house
will be all connected to dimmable regions
of course it will be diy
i plan on using around 500led units and 50 drivers
makes it a bit on the expensive side
but i do not believe that any other technology or product will permit that
quality and control until we are talking about OLED lighting panels

so if you really want to use LED
plan on using a different fixture and pattern
for efficient lighting

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

Ed Davies — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:53:48 +0000

Posted By: JinMTVTof course it will be diy

Are the building control peeps OK with that? Are there any issues with regulations at all? Are you a qualified electrician, will you get it signed off by somebody else or does the design avoid any wiring regulations or Part P (is that the right one?) issues?

I'd like to do something similar but worry that rules set up assuming standard builds could make things awkward.

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

visitor — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:48:23 +0000

Hi Dan,
I can send you GU10 3x1W MR16 LEDs in Natural Light colour index for you to try. I've been frustrated myself of the low quality LED lights available in UK and have designed and manufactured these to specification. These are equivalent to 35W halogens and have 60 degree light beam angle. The lights are CE listed is that is of concern to you. I can also provide GU10 3x2W G60 lamps if you need 50W halogen equivalent and your fittings can accept them.
Cheers,
Ivan

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

CWatters — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:56:45 +0000

Posted By: Ed Davies
Posted By: JinMTVTof course it will be diy

Are the building control peeps OK with that? Are there any issues with regulations at all?

It's a good question. Technically I probably should have made a Building Control Application when I set up my bird box as I've fitted it out with a web cam and home made low voltage LED lighting. If it wasn't so expensive I would have done that just to see the expression on the BCO's face.

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

JinMTVT — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:55:00 +0000

Posted By: Ed Davies
Posted By: JinMTVTof course it will be diy

Are the building control peeps OK with that? Are there any issues with regulations at all? Are you a qualified electrician, will you get it signed off by somebody else or does the design avoid any wiring regulations or Part P (is that the right one?) issues?

I'd like to do something similar but worry that rules set up assuming standard builds could make things awkward.

Well the code here in Quebec, as far as i know,
dictates the use of electricity in AC form.
As soon as it gets transformed to DC, one can do much more without following rules.

Then no, i am no electrician...but i will be doing it all in my house
except for the electrical entry and main connection, wich was already done by a master electrician of course
It is not legal, but alot of people do it,
and we don't often see such things as inspection around here..beeing in the country also helps,
i'm not sure that i could've built and design my house the way i did if i was near any city
( self engineered,designed and built ICF house of over 40' high of blocks :p )

I believe that once you get all code regulated connections up to the switches and voltage converter/control box -> DC 20v or less
they can't do anything ...but then again any country could be different ...
and then again ..i might just have been very lucky that they were busy elsewhere :p

Ivan: do you have a spectogram file of the output of your lamp ? wich led have you used ?

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

Paul in Montreal — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:39:04 +0000

Posted By: JinMTVTWell the code here in Quebec

Hello from a fellow Quebecer!

Paul in Montreal.

p.s. as for electrical, the rules versus the enforcement here in Quebec is quite interesting. I think you're correct, though, that any DC/low voltage installation is out of the remit of the electrical code.

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

Ed Davies — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:04:32 +0000

Posted By: JinMTVTWell the code here in Quebec

Ah, that's probably different then. I admit I'm a bit fuzzy on the limits in the UK but I'm pretty sure that more is regulated in practice here than you indicate for Quebec.

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

Paul in Montreal — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:11:31 +0000

In theory in Quebec a homeowner is not allowed to do any (mains voltage) electrical work in their own dwelling at all. Nothing, not even installing a new outlet or light fitting. However, the hardware stores sell all the stuff you need to be able to do so, despite what the law says. Other provinces, e.g. Ontario, allow a homeowner to work on their own property, so long as they get a permit and have an inspection after the work is done. I'm not sure there's any difference in the proportion of people who do their own electrical work between the two regimes or not.

Paul in Montreal.

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

JinMTVT — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 23:36:15 +0000

Hi Paul !! :)
belle cabanne en passant!!! dans quel coin ?

What is even more interesting, is how we never see any inspector for electrical in the residential ...
i fully understand that a master electrician is required for the mains connection to the circuit,
but for the rest ...what is easier than electricity ?
it is only very basic maths ... neway ...one can always pay to get it done properly if not confident!

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

JinMTVT — Tue, 30 Dec 2008 05:21:03 +0000

near Berthierville. on the islands there .. :)

Knowlton ...c'est proche de Bromont ca?
There is a track at Bromont ski wich is named as such :)

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

JinMTVT — Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:23:12 +0000

ahha
i believe that i'll still need alot of heating ..
the size of the house won't probably help
but i've bought triple pane windows with double low 2 .. 0.18U value on all non-sun windows
the house wich i am currently in ( parent's ..temporary for the building) is about 500m from my new house
and is along the st-laurent ..nice view ..but the land costs 10 times the price of mine,
wich is just over the street
i won't have a river view, but i do have a forest view and from the roof terrace one can see the river
and the boats ( the st-laurent is almost 1km wide here )

the heating is going to be all underfloor electrical heating
all floors are concrete
this is the only way i could get 100% control everywhere anytime
i do have a 2000' ground loop of 1/2" pex that i burrowed in the front
of the house ...100' long 40' wide ~6' deep
wich is always in water ( island )

can't say i won't use it for heating somewhere in time
but it will be used for cooling during summer

cna't say that ICF is super insulated, since concrete doens't bring any insulation at all
but with the mass , it'll be very stable temperature :)

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

Paul in Montreal — Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:52:44 +0000

Posted By: JinMTVTthe heating is going to be all underfloor electrical heating
all floors are concrete

You're better off putting in a wet system into the concrete as then you'll have flexibility in fuel source - you could use solar, wood, gas, oil or geothermal. Geothermal would be the lowest running cost - unless by electrical you mean you're going to use a heatpump as you have a 2000' ground loop? We have a wet system and there are several zones - each with their own thermostats so control is not a problem.

ICF is pretty well insulated and has the benefit of being very airtight so you should have a pretty low heatload. You should create a simulation model of your house in hot2000 and see what sort of heating/cooling load it has. Take a look here: http://canmetenergy.nrcan.gc.ca/eng/software_tools/hot2000.html It's not that difficult to use and you should have no trouble inputting the ICF structure into it.

Paul in Montreal.

LED lights - output needed to equal a halogen

JinMTVT — Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:15:39 +0000

hey thanks for the link..i'll have a look at that later tonight :)
just shoveled 1.5ft of snow/ice/snow/ice from my flat roof ( around 1600 sq ft )

for the heating, i prefer the easy implementation and control of the electricity
it will take only a few minutes to isntall it before pouring for every room
no leaks posisble, no valves..no follow ups and checks to do .. 0 time consuming

and i could always use the central air system later on to use the geo to distribute some heat into the house

this is also a part i haven't worked on yet
the air system ... i want to all diy this system
and i want alot of flexibility and i haven't seen any commercial systems that do all i want to
probably will go with computer controlled inline fans or duct vanes ..
i planned on using a very big radiator with alot of area and using the cooled water from the geo loop
directly in it with only a small water pump and have the house air go through it during summer months
though i won't have much solar gain because of adjacent trees and window sun blocker things i'll do outsite

enough said..need to go work my ass and start cutting some EPS foam to fill all those
nasty steel deck forms before we install the top eps and vapor barrier