Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!


widget @ surfing-waves.com




Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




    • CommentAuthorjamesbl
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2009
     
    I have wondered about how useful thermal image surveys are, and how much you need to spend to get a camera that gives good informative results for building surveys and energy leakage. There seems to be a lot of contradictory information out there, and prices for thermal imaging cameras suitable for building applications vary from about £2500 up to £20,000. Howe much do you really need to spend ? I would be very interested to hear people's experiences and views on these.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2009
     
    You are probably better of not knowing -- all the pics I have seen have shown up dire leakages of heat and horrendous thermal bridging.
    • CommentAuthorbrig001
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2009
     
    You can start from £15 http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=220790

    Found air infiltration all over the place and gaps in loft insulation without going up there using one of these.

    Takes a long time, but gives me something to do while Casualty, Big Brother etc. are on.
    • CommentAuthorJoatex
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2009
     
    Just what I used brig001. Took half a day to measure the IR radiation in enough places on all the walls and windows to assess the direction and amount of heat flow. Rather longer to set up a spreadsheet in which the parameters could be altered to assess the savings from any changed insulation values. Don't forget to include the IR reading of ceiling and floor all the rooms and readings of the outside walls.
    •  
      CommentAuthorPaulT
    • CommentTimeJan 14th 2009 edited
     
    I do a lot of thermal imaging professionaly (for the last 3/4 years or so).

    My Camera is low res so I only do interior work and limited exterior detailing.

    The main use is in conjunction with Ait leakage testing; Incoming cold air will cool sufraces showing up air leakage paths.

    I am now about to upgrade and have found that £4,000-£8,000 is needed for a camaera capable of providing reasonable images for exterior work.

    ---------

    It is very improtant to understant that thermal imaging is a qualitative analysis and needs a good understanding of physics to interpret correctly.
    For instance if you image metal and wood at the same temperature the camera will show different temp's du to the different emissivities...

    It is also a profession for insomniacs as Solar radiation quickly messes up results.

    Visible light :cool:
    IR :shamed:
    • CommentAuthorjamesbl
    • CommentTimeJan 14th 2009
     
    Thanks Paul - That is interesting . Some of the companies selling thermal imaging cameras offer free training with the sale . Do you think that a basic science education and one days training would be enough to get the physics ? .

    I would like to use a camera for building defects - roof leaks , under floor heating faults and for energy diagnostic work .
    • CommentAuthorSimonH
    • CommentTimeJan 14th 2009
     
    One option might be - get your self an old 35mm SLR, some Infrared film (which you need to sotre in the fridge for obvious reasons). You woin't be able to calcualte U values will need to learn how to set aperture and shutter speed manually but should get some "interesting" black and white IR pics. I think you can also get colour IR film - with the colours looking rather crazy!

    Alternatively some of the digtal SLRs are available without the IR filter I believe - check some camera forums but it was what I was considering. I think some of the older models might be available cheaply on ebay having gone out of fashion. What you then need to add is a screw on visible light filter to the front of your SLR lens and all that hits the sensor is IR. So again - you can get black and white thermal images. White is hot - and leaky - darker is cooler and insulated. The advantage with digital of course is you can play with the settings to get the exposure right so that instead of getting a black image with shadesof dark grey, you get a whiter image with shades of light grey. You can also use the camera for "normal" photography. Still expect to spend a few bob on lenses, batteries, filters tripod / bag etc.

    These both won't give you temperature reading and let you work out real U values, but at least you can see where the leaks are. They are also much higher resolution that dedicated IR cameras.
    •  
      CommentAuthorPaulT
    • CommentTimeJan 14th 2009
     
    Simon - Sorry but the digital cameras use a different part of the spectrum and do not read the frequencies associated with normal surface temperatures.

    Visible light centres around surfaace temperatures of 6,000K - the sun, the IR the cameras detect is closer to those magnitudes of temperatures rather than the 250-300K (approx) range we are interested in.


    James CIBSE Guide A (Environmental), available from your library (I believe) is a good start for background reading.
    • CommentAuthorBrianR
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2009
     
    The thermal imaging of a house is really worth doing. The cameras are very expensive (>10k£), the good ones have Germanium lenses and are not sold to the general public (they are restricted). I tried making my own using a web cam and removing the IR filter, this hardly worked at all. I would guess minimum resolution to have now would be VGA 640X480.

    It is well worth getting a surveyor round who offers an IR service. I paid £250 and it showed up all the places where radiators were streaming heat to outside. The wood framing of the house underneath the render. Places where water was leaking in from the roof and many other useful bits of information. The JPEGs supplied will be invaluable for future maintenance.

    There are some things that would be a very useful addition. It would be useful to have a picture of where heat flows out of the house rather than the external temperature. Not quite sure how to achieve this (pulse heat the house?). Even better would be a service like IR that detected water or damp in buildings (in 3D). The person to lick that problem with a cheap gadget will make a fortune.
    • CommentAuthortrolleyed
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2010
     
    Presumably you can hire one of these cameras suitable for identifying where the heat losses are from on the outside of the building? I want to club together with my neighbours and hire one for the weekend. Does anyone know where from/how much it would be?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2010 edited
     
    From my page: http://www.earth.org.uk/superinsulating-our-living-room.html


    Livingston was very helpful 2010/07/19 saying that a typical low-end thermal camera with a USB connection to extract images from it would cost somewhere round £300--£400 for a 3-day hire which could be over a weekend, which would probably cover me. Ashtead Technology had a 2-day minimum hire for a little over £100/day for similar, so getting hold of this equipment is not prohibitively expensive or difficult.


    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2010
     
    It's time Google put thermal imaging cameras on their Streetview cars. They could certainly afford it.
    • CommentAuthorarnyj
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010
     
    Get in touch with your local council energy efficency officer or The energy savings trust I was going to borrow one from a cheshire based charity, the rate of hire was to be £10 a week with £100 deposit.

    the Transition movement might also be able to help.

    if you reply to me quietly I will find exact contact info ,

    arny
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2010
     
    Posted By: rhamduIt's time Google put thermal imaging cameras on their Streetview cars. They could certainly afford it.

    Nice idea - have you suggested it to them?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2010
     
    Not going to help much with the back or insides of houses, though a thermal overlay on Google Maps in mid-winter might be very very helpful, especially if updated annually.

    Rgds

    Damon
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2010
     
    Could get some 'interesting silhouette' from bedroom windows and much more interesting really 'hot' lofts!
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2010
     
    Much as I like the idea of Google Thermal Streetview, I am not sure it is technically feasible.

    Someone with experience of heat cameras please tell us - do they record images fast enough to be used from a moving car? The cops use infra red cameras from helicopters to pursue suspects by night - but maybe that's a different kind of camera.
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2010
     
    Posted By: rhamduGoogle Thermal Streetview


    If anyone is interested.... the idea was floated in 2009 as an apparent April fool http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/archives/2009/04/google_previews_next_generation_str.html

    In June 2009 it was proposed as a serious idea, in the Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gavin-d-j-harper/never-mind-google-streetv_b_211830.html
    • CommentAuthordaysleeper
    • CommentTimeNov 27th 2010
     
    Just had a quote to have a TI survey done of the house - £500 :shocked: Thinking of popping round to the fire station and seeing if I can borrow theirs!
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeNov 27th 2010
     
    Was just giving a talk about energy efficiency at a local group and they had one there to play with, so I'm going to try to borrow theirs for a day or to rather than forking out £200 to hire one!

    Rgds

    Damon
  1.  
    So does anyone know if this is a job that's fairly straight forward to DIY or does it need a "pro" to interpret properly.

    TIC hire is about £200 (cheaper if you have a trade desk nearby and can do 1 day hire) but the cheapest quote to do a TIC only survey is about £300+vat and a blower door is £500-600
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2010 edited
     
    This has an IR camera and it has been 'hacked' so maybe it is good enough.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19762-inside-the-race-to-hack-the-kinect.html?full=true

    Having just looked at the video I am not sure what 'Bra Boy' is about, really pushing the boundaries of technology there!
    • CommentAuthorbrig001
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2010
     
    I think that "infrared scanner" just means that they use an infra red laser (LED) to scan objects to determine distance etc., but I could be wrong. Oh, erm, Bra Boy, those are just rumours. You can't prove anything...
    Brian.
    • CommentAuthorRobur
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2010
     
    There is plenty of misunderstanding surrounding thermal imaging - tends to be seen as blue = good and yellow = bad but you need to look more carefully as there are so many factors involved.
    Remember, the IR camera will simply measure the surface temperature of what you are looking at, not heat flow through the construction or anything else.
    A great tool but handle with care :-)
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2010
     
    Yes, never thought it may be a 'bar code reader' or for some users a 'bra' code reader.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2010
     
    Groan factor of 10/10!
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2010
     
    daysleeper - see PaulT's post dated Jan 14th 2009, above.
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2010
     
    Some of you interested in getting a thermal survey done cheaply might want to take a look here:
    http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12303.0/topicseen.html
    (surveys beeing offered in the Leicester / Cambridgeshire / Surrey / Reading/ Swindon area for GBP 100.

    I've had this service from Ivan last year and it's definately useful. We found a couple of leaky windows, a big heat hole above the bathroom vent and you could see one of the radiators throught the (Cavity insulated) wall. His camera is not the fanciest, but it does the job.

    Tiresomely, the IR camera people all insist on keeping their image formats secret so you can't view them on Linux at all (yet), nor can you write software to do image format conversion or batch processing or anything else. The viewing software does run under wine, at least.
    • CommentAuthorTonyt
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2011
     
    I had a free trial from fluke for a couple of days, it was interesting too see the differences in the recently insulated rafters in one room and the original non insulated rafters.

    Go to fluke website, i think its called try and buy, i didnt buy.

    Tonyt
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2011
     
    I have just used a borrowed Fluke IR camera to check my ewi insulation on a 200 year old house.
    External surface temp -3.2 not bad I thought so I compared it a neighbour in an 8 year old house their external surface temp was +4.2. Their DG was cooler than their walls, I dont think they put any insulation in the walls.

    I suspect thats fairly typical of a modern "as built" survey as building regs dont monitor what insulation actually gets installed.

    The IR camera has been very useful in confirming my thoughts as to where the cold bridges are.
    I plan to use it again when its windy to spot draughts.
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press