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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorEdK
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2009
     
    A couple of questions about insulating walls both for sound and for heat.

    I went to see someone's house yesterday and had some ideas prior to this anyway. He has cavity wall with 50mm kingspan on the inner leaf and then he has cross battened the inside wall with silver Tri-Iso (I know this is controversial and have read the threads on this - this isn't about the material more about the double insulation method). He's got a continuous envelope between the ground floor running up the walls to the first floor. He'll plasterboard that on top.

    In my place I have an extension with cavity blockwork and full fill insulation. I was using some 50mm gyproc thermaline super (phenolic) in some other places and was wondering if it was worth buying more and facing the inside of the extension with it to improve the u value of the wall ?

    Other thoughts about using materials up ... I have offcuts of 12.5mm plasterboard and was wondering if I could use this inside my internal studwork walls to improve the acoustics.

    I thought that if I place a batten in the middle of the studwork and then fix the offcuts to this I'd have effectively a sandwich of three layers of plasterboard with some kind of material either side of the centre (rockwool ? acoustic grade insulation ? any brand names or products to look for ?). Planning on getting the house wet plastered.

    I know it's more work - but will it be effective in cutting down noise ? Are there any other uses for plasterboard offcuts ? Can it be used as hardcore ?

    Thanks
    Ed
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2009
     
    Noise travels through gaps and cracks so avoid these at all costs. So does heat.

    Do not use plasterboard off cuts as hard-core or as any fill. It is possible though not as easy as ti should be to recycle these free to the place where you bought it.

    Using the off cuts to form a double layer is a good idea and have done it many occasions myself, there are better ways that cost money.
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2009
     
    Cutting down noise from where?
    • CommentAuthorEdK
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2009
     
    Inside the house between rooms - I don't like hearing stuff between floors vertically and also between rooms horizontally.

    ie i have a shower next to a bedroom and don't like hearing the shower - also if I play music loud in one room someone else might not want to hear it in the next room.

    Trying to contain my own noise as it is a quiet area - semi rural but relatively high density of houses and mostly old people (could be an argument there for diminished hearing anyway ?!)

    Thanks
    Ed
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2009
     
    In which case you could do that, but it would take a fair bit of work I imagine to cut, fix and fit all those bits of plasterboard.

    You must also not forget about resonance. Small sealed air voids (even full of mineral wool) will resonate at a certain frequency and allow a lot of sound to pass though the wall at that frequency.

    Large open voids have much much lower resonant frequencies and so generally perform better as the resonant f drops down below what the human ear can detect.

    I would personally either double board with NO back to back services (two different board thicknesses) or use a resi bar system.

    I think the best least faffy option would be 15 and 12.5 to either side of the wall with dense-ish (30 - 40 kg/m3) mineral wool between.

    Doors are also the key, and usually one of the weeker points in the chain.

    All doors should be reasonably heavy duty with good seals and minimal gaps arround (bottom) the door.

    Timber
  1.  
    Posted By: TimberDoors are also the key, and usually one of the weeker points in the chain.

    All doors should be reasonably heavy duty with good seals and minimal gaps arround (bottom) the door.

    This is something I've been meaning to ask. I understand that with a well sealed house and MHRV/MVHR it's necessary to leave a gap under internal doors to allow adequate air circulation. If this is true, then isn't it effectively impossible to "soundproof" rooms?

    I'm interested since I am also averse to hearing other peoples ablutions and do not want to be forced to listen to my offspring's future musical tastes throughout the house (at least when they get older and have grown out of Bob the Builder and learned how to control the music themselves).
  2.  
    Posted By: MarkBennettThis is something I've been meaning to ask. I understand that with a well sealed house and MHRV/MVHR it's necessary to leave a gap under internal doors to allow adequate air circulation. If this is true, then isn't it effectively impossible to "soundproof" rooms?


    Only if you have only one of the two ducts that are required. If you have both, you don't need a gap under the door. It would be unusual to have both unless you already have forced-air heating, though it is possible to route both if you have a HRV system. Of course, if you are using fully ducted source/return, it's important to use acoustically insulated ductwork if you're really concerned about sound transmission.

    Paul in Montreal
  3.  
    Posted By: Paul in MontrealOnly if you have only one of the two ducts that are required. If you have both, you don't need a gap under the door. It would be unusual to have both unless you already have forced-air heating, though it is possible to route both if you have a HRV system.


    So the solution is to have both extract and supply vents in each roof that you want to keep "isolated". Since this is likely to be about half the rooms in the house to some degree it sounds like a lot of ducting.

    Posted By: Paul in MontrealOf course, if you are using fully ducted source/return, it's important to use acoustically insulated ductwork if you're really concerned about sound transmission.


    Presumably this is a problem for any such ventilation system, not just fully ducted source and return (although twice the ducts gives more transmission). How big a problem is this, and what is different about the acoustically insulated ductwork to cut down on noise transmission?
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2009
     
    Acoustic duct work looks and works like the silencer on a car exhaust.

    Gaps and air flow are always a problem with this sort of a thing, and I am not sure that there is an 'easy' answer.

    Timber
    • CommentAuthorEdK
    • CommentTimeMar 31st 2009
     
    So for resonance reasons it's better to double wall each side rather than create a partition int he stud wall centre. ie ||###|| is better than |##|##|.

    I'll try to use some offcuts so that they are fluch with the edge of the studwork and then face with fresh plasterboard on a wall to see how much of an effort this is (but good not to waste the offcuts).

    I guess I could even put two layers flush with the studwork and then face with a single fresh layer to give three each side of the wall or is this overkill ?

    I've been looking at heavy mineral wool and the local yard sells Isowool Acoustic APR1200 which is £63 for a 50mm thick roll (600mm x 13metres). Is this material good ?

    My studwork is 100mm x 50mm so I will need to add two layers of 50mm mineral wool. Is it better to try and cram in three layers or will this over pack the void ?

    I've also seen acoustic matting. Is this worth facing the studwork with and then applying plasterboard or will two layers of plasterboard be enough ?

    I think that I will need to do the ceilings too to avoid sound 'jumping' over the wall. I have added in thermal insulation to this already so will either have to take this out and add offcuts snuggly into the spaces between the joists and then replace the Kingspan (100mm) or add something over the top.

    As for doors - I was planning on getting fairly solid ones (not the cardboard ones that all new builds seem to have) and then maybe adding some sealing like I did for the external ones (acquamac 21 or something like that).

    Thanks
    Ed
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeMar 31st 2009
     
    Generally speaking, yes.

    I would suggest double boarding rather than sticking a board in the middle of the stud void.

    Any dense mineral wool will work well for acoustics, it doesn't have to be an 'acoustic' product.

    From my experience that acoustic matting does make a difference, but only as much as adding another layer of plasterboard would. You would be better off using resilient bars if you want to step the performance up another level.

    The ceiling may allow sound though. Packing dense mienral wool, plasterboard, rigid insulation or anything in there will help a great deal. Just make sure that it is air tight.

    A seal around the perimeter of the doors will also make a big difference to high frequency sound transmission.

    Sounds like you have a plan, and it should work well enough

    Timber
    • CommentAuthorralphd
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2009
     
    For noise insulation:
    http://www.greengluecompany.com/
    • CommentAuthorEdK
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2009
     
    Thanks for the info - went to the building shop yesterday and got prices for Isowool space saver / Isowool APR1200 / Ecomax Soundslab.

    Got me thinking ... a name like 'Ecomax' should be fairly ecologically minded :) All this mineral wool... what is the environmental impact ? Must be created at great temperatures...

    Anyway had some trouble finding density details on these but found this useful : http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=685245&Main=682855

    Might go for double plasterboarding (12.5mm with 15mm) possibly glued with 'green glue' and then probably standard mineral wool. Think that this will be ok...

    Thanks
    Ed
    • CommentAuthorralphd
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2009
     
    Another good paper on sound insulation.
    http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/cbd/cbd239_e.html
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeApr 5th 2009
     
    I know the ecomax range.

    The eco has nothing to do with 'green'

    Was, and has been the name for the product range for a very long time, and was never anything to do with 'eco'.

    not sure where the ecomax name came from tbh, i used to work for part of the same group that makes it, Hodgson and Hodgson Group Ltd.

    Timber
  4.  
    I put up a new page on soundproofing if anyone is interested http://www.viking-house.co.uk/soundproofing.html
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2012
     
    Nice little description there.

    Having said that the pedantic acoustician inside me screams when people do not use the correct terminology :cry:

    I assume that 'sound class' is actually refereing to Sound Reduction Index (dB Rw). I am also not sure wht you mean at the end of the first paragraph when stating that the numbers below are 3 dB below the stated values?

    Sorry to pic holes, but if people do not use the correct terminology (e.g. dB Rw, dB R'w, dB DnT,w etc) then there can be a whole world of confusion.
  5.  
    Hi Joiner, I'm not well up on sound, so if you could tell me what you think I should change I'd appreciate it! I get some people complaining that Timber Frame construction is noisy, I wanted to show what can be achieved by putting soft materials between hard materials.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2012
     
    How does fermacell stack up? AIUI it is much better sound insulant so the reduction in work (double board) would offset the additional cost?
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2012
     
    Having looked at Viking House's link above I like the idea of de-coupling the walls by having separate studs for each side of the wall but only having 45mm x 45mm stud for plasterboard support (even one side only) does not seem man enough for me. Being a practical bloke I would like to see 75mm or 100mm studs at 300mm centres but every other one off set so each side of the wall is fixed at 600mm centres to their own stud. Start and stop studs would need to be bigger or 2x singles. I hope this makes sense, I may do a diagram after tea if I have time.

    Is it beneficial for the soundeadening material within the wall to touch the plasterboard both sides or be loose?
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2012
     
    Double stud and staggered stud walls are good.

    Timber frame party walls are normally two leaves of 89x38 mm studwork separated by a 50 mm cavity and two layers of plasterboard on both sides.

    Staggered stud using 89mm studs and a 140mm bottom and top rail is also a decent wall, but nowhere near as good as the double stud wall above.

    As for the acoustic insulation, its exact location is not that important. It does not 'stop' sound, but mearly absorb sound boucing around witin the void between the linings.
    • CommentAuthorPaul_B
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2012
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: borpin</cite>How does fermacell stack up? AIUI it is much better sound insulant so the reduction in work (double board) would offset the additional cost?</blockquote>

    I was wondering the same thing
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