pmcc

The problem with MacKay's book is that large sections are just wrong. Fortunately some of us have actual experience of Biomass and Solar and can work out were his assumptions are wrong. The difficulty arises when people with influence and no practical experience quote from his book as gospel. Just because he is a Professor does not make his hypothesis correct.

John, sure, MacKay makes assumptions about how materials can be sourced and technology used. I'll bet he would be very pleased to have his assumptions corrected. As mentioned in the book it took shape over a number of years using feedback from experts in various fields. Like Dave I would be interested to learn more about where the book misses the mark.

Some of the top-level assumptions about the level of usefully available solar energy seem to hide a lot of more detailed underlying assumptions, which really should be questioned. However, I think the point isn't to get everything wholly accurate, but rather to get a feel for the big picture.

Posted By: djh

Posted By: renewablejohnThe problem with MacKay's book is that large sections are just wrong.

John, could you point out a few specific examples that we can all look at?

Thanks, Dave

I found a good number and I got fed up (and annoyed by) reading it (life too short) and my red pen ran out of ink. I suggest that you just read every word up to about page 50 Dave and then you will see. He is completely biased as we all are i guess but on page 16 he promises not to to feed us his own conclusions!! pah

In my opinion there is questionable stuff on pages: 4, 5,16,21,24,27 (this page is barmy in my opinion), 31, and his closing statement to the section on 'smarter heating' on page 153 contradicts his promise made on page 16.

I can only conclude like renewablJohn and others has that most people people that proclaim its worth have not actually bothered reading it!

Well said. The green things in life are free.

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: GBP-Keith</cite>There are also two types of 'too expensive':
Too expensive in monetary terms
Too expensive in environmental terms</blockquote>

There is a third.

Too expensive in social terms

Nick

"Maybe we should move this Mckay stuff to its own thread so we can let this thread get back on track. What do others think?"

"I think that's an excellent idea, Keith."

There's already a thread on this http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3012&page=2#Item_10. I've posted a general request for criticism.

Or, the best things in life are free?

Maybe, the best things in life are green?...

The billion people in the world who live off less than a dollar a day are probably a lot greener than all of us. (Even if they don't know it.)

I've posted my reply to renewablejohn on the other thread that pmcc pointed out.

posted replys on the other thread

jamesingram
I'm concerned about the these points

1."They (Green Electricity Illusion authors)show that the demand for electric space heating is growing year on year. Whilst they can’t prove that the availability of green tariffs is a contributory cause, the implication that they are is clear."
2. Big generators aren't reaching their targets
3. increased demand is over taking new renewable generation entering the grid
4." We should be concentrating our green efforts on reducing electricity demand: the existence of renewable-only suppliers only muddies the waters and makes this less likely. "
5. If ET & GE sell there ROCs the big generator can use them to offset there own inactions
(yes ET use this to invest in new generation, so a net benefit)

I added this question later , would you know the answer?
is it correct that demand for electricity is increasing faster than new renewable supply entering the grid ?

Hiya James,

Sorry about the delay, I got dragged into a marketing emergency. EDF half-inched our green flag and "Green Britain" tagline... anyway, our researcher is pretty swamped too - so I tried to answer these myself (please bear in mind that I haven't read the report in detail, and my expertise is in web stuff though!).

1. I think that the comparative price of electricity over gas and oil is probably a more likely cause of increase in electric space heating. Or indeed - the cost of connecting gas mains for housing developers. Or it could even be linked to a rise in single occupancy dwellings. I seriously doubt that green home-owners think "turn the heating up, leave the lights on - we are on a green tariff it doesn't matter".

2. Big generators are generally *not* reaching their targets. They spend very little per capita on renewables, and find it easier to pay the fines or buy the ROCs from those who have a surplus. That helps Ecotricity build more wind parks ironically. At the end of the day there isn’t enough green electricity out there, and the only way of solving this problem is to build new sources.

3. Looking at the last 3 years that figures are available for – between 2005 and 2007 electricity demand in the UK dropped by 1% (from 404TWh to 400TWh) whilst in the same period the proportion of renewables in the grid supply increased from 3.8% to 4.7%. Last year 5.5% of grid electricity was supplied from renewables.

4. I agree (and Ecotricity agree) that we should all be reducing demand and changing the way we use electricity. Of course we encourage our customers to do energy efficiency and reduce consumption. I don't agree that renewable only tariffs don't help achieve this. Ecotricity are all about building new sources of renewables and changing the way electricity is made in the UK, spending more per customer than all the other energy co's put together! How can that not be helping? I think that Mark and the authors of the Green Electricity Illusion report were not really looking at Ecotricity's model.

5. Hehe - well let's not get into the topic of ROC retiral ;-) As you say - if Ecotricity sell spare ROCs to the others - we get to spend money on building turbines, which is what ROCs were set up for. Ecotricity are the only energy co in the UK to meet Renewables Obligations with self-built energy...

A quote from Green Electricity Illusion:

In this situation, all electricity fed into the grid becomes indistinguishable, a mixture,
and the notion of “green electricity” is a fallacy. There is really no such thing. The concept
could only become meaningful on the day, hopefully later this century, when the UK finally
retires its last non-renewable generating plant and the whole of the UK economy has been
fully converted to the following seven renewable energy sources:
1. Wind,
2. Solar,
3. Wave,
4. Hydro,
5. Biomass (forestry waste, energy crops, etc),
6. Tidal;
7. Geothermal.
When that situation comes about, it would be correct to state that we are all receiving
green electricity through the wires. Until then, it would not.

Now - bearing in mind that the 'Big 6' are not spending as much on new renewables build as they could, or should, and that the govt is failing on targets/commitments... I do wonder how the authors of the report expected this to happen..?

Another bit from their recommendations at the end:

Some companies who currently offer so-called green tariffs and are working hard to
increase the proportion of renewable electricity should be rewarded by being accredited by
OFGEM. This should, however, be conditional on their proving that on behalf of their
customers they generate - or contract for - a higher percentage of renewable electricity
than the minimum legal requirement in that year.

That bit does make sense though :)

I am happy to be doing my bit.

Does any of that help convince you that Green Tariffs can be a good thing James?

Paul

Paul , thanks for the info , been running around all over , just remembered your post

"Does any of that help convince you that Green Tariffs can be a good thing James?"
Yes I think the company you work for are really trying to make a difference , but I have to ask myself could I spend the increase premium I'd be paying in a more productive way , I've done most the easy cheap improvements on my home, so maybe nows it would be wise to invest in a truely green tariff.

a few thoughts on your reply

1. Yes developers cost saving by not connecting gas must play a part
"I seriously doubt that green home-owners think "turn the heating up, leave the lights on - we are on a green tariff it doesn't matter". " Unfortunately I've met quite a few people who think like that ,
also what part do heat pumps play in the increase demand for electrical space heating , are people fitting these think that by signing up to a green tariff , they now have a carbon netural heating system , I think this is what was meant by green tariffs " muddying the waters"

2. Big generators are generally *not* reaching their targets. I agree with
"Some companies who currently offer so-called green tariffs and are working hard to
increase the proportion of renewable electricity should be rewarded by being accredited by
OFGEM. This should, however, be conditional on their proving that on behalf of their
customers they generate - or contract for - a higher percentage of renewable electricity
than the minimum legal requirement in that year."

3. be nice to find the figures for 2008 as it feels thing are starting to take off a bit

4. I agree , your model is how it should be ( lets lobby the goverment to ban all fake green tariffs that dont follow the statement above in 3.)

5. Ok

how do the authors intend to reach these targets , I'm unsure , you could ask them, they post on this forum
http://www.aecb.net/forum/index.php
I think it goes back to the " muddying the waters" bit. Fake green tariffs , i believe , do falsely make people feel they are reducing their enviromental impact. its a easy get out , as in , "I'm doing my bit so now I can carry on regardless"
I wouldn't put ecotricity down as a fake green tariff , its clearly trying to do something better

cheers and hope you've sorted out those french lot, using our union jack !

Hiya James,

No worries - it's my first day back today after my hols - so apologies for not responding earlier - been offline for the longest time in over 5 years!! Very novel! I am still in shock actually - so I may not make any sense with the following;

In general, I am not sure there is a better/more effective way of spending extra cash on being green once the 'low hanging fruit' has been picked with your home (insulation, air tightening, passive solar heating etc). Most people who are still on a standard 'brown' tariff with their regional supplier won't really notice a difference in their bill if they switch to Ecotricity NE, but the really prudent ones have already switched several times to the cheapest tariffs and really are going to notice a difference, unless they haven't yet done any energy saving measures... and decide to do those at the same time as switching...

If you live in a really windy/sunny location - it might be worth installing some microgen, but in most cases it isn't worth it. FITs may have an influence on that next year, but there are still economies of scale with wind turbines. Then there's 'embedded carbon' to consider after (or before!) the financials...

I am rambling - onto the bullet points!

1. Hmm - I am troubled by that... I guess I would say that those people aren't 'green' in that case, except in the naive sense of the word - or they just have more money than sense perhaps? It defies logic really. Case in point - we have air conditioning in the office now (fitted this year - it uses some kind of air pump exchange thing), but we have only used it during that really hot period a month or so ago, where the air outside was hotter than inside. The rest of the time we open the doors/windows, despite having the option of cool air at the touch of a button. We (obviously) have a green supply, but the consensus is that wasting green energy is possibly even worse than wasting brown energy! We all work hard to generate it - would be silly to waste it.

2. Us too. That's the only way to do it really.

3. I think it's 5.5% for 2008 - not sure what this years figures are going to say though - I will see where Gary got those figures from and we can keep an eye out for updates..

4. Unfortunately there aren't many other energy companies who agree with us on this one ;-) And OFGEM seem to think there are other/better ways to be green other than generating green energy beyond legal requirements.

5. Cheers.. I might try and find time to ask that question. FWIW (For What It's Worth for the non txt spkrs) I couldn't work for a bunch of fakers, not that that would stand up as an argument, but it's true :)

Still working on the 'great union hi jack' as far as I know - been off radar for a while though - will have to get an update. What a farce though!

Good luck in your quest to find the right balance between economy and environmental... and thanks for sharing your thoughts. All useful stuff for me/us.

Cheers
Paul