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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

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    • CommentAuthorRicochet
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2009 edited
     
    I expect you have all read it but if not its at http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/multifoil .
    BD 2768 , so what is the definitive answer ?
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2009
     
    Basicalliy it's saying:

    1) that the foil mentioned (see * below) isn't as good as 100mm mineral wool (let alone 200mm mineral wool).

    2) that hot box test figures should be used to calculate U-Values... " no new substantive evidence on robustness,
    accuracy, and repeatability to support the move from hot box characterisation to in-situ performance testing is presented".

    3) Chapter 5 hints at the future of multifoils. Section 5.7 - 5.15 are interesting as they attempts to calculate the best that a new multifoil could ever achieve. For example it proposes a multifoil that uses aerogel (see $ below) but 5.15 concludes.. "...multi-foil systems even if using the best materials available cannot out perform 200mm of mineral wool insulation for the roof structure simulated".

    Why they compare with mineral wool I'm not sure. I thought rigid foam insulation was better than mineral wool at same thickness. Isn't thickness the whole point?

    Notes:

    * = "a multi-foil insulation with aluminium relective surfaces, (emittance 0.07) and a core thermal conductivity of 0.04"

    $ = "multi-foil systems with relective surface emittance of 0.02 and foam core thermal conductivities of 0.012W/mK (aerogel blanket)."
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2009
     
    The multifoil when combined with aerogel serves only to reduce the R value of the aerogel i.e. greater thickness of combined insulations for lesser thermal performance
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2009
     
    Posted By: CWatters" no new substantive evidence on robustness, accuracy, and repeatability to support the move from hot box characterisation to in-situ performance testing is presented"
    Incredible that a 'reputable' organisation can base policy on a flat lie. Reams of such evidence has been produced, and was accepted by the consensus of the testing houses of Europe, who consequently embarked on a programme to build 13 expensive new test rigs. However the trade-protection battle continued and the 'conventional' insulation manufacturers managed to scotch that programme. The multifoil manufacturers seem to have accepted defeat for the time being - at least, Paul Mitton of Euroform (Xfoil), the boffin leading the charge, now has his hands full as MD of Euroform under its new owners Sheffield Insulations. However SIG didn't pay £8m for Euroform just to see its flagship product line extinguished, so I'm sure the story's not over.

    Posted By: CWattersmulti-foil systems even if using the best materials available cannot out perform 200mm of mineral wool insulation
    not true - just to prove the point, Paul Mitton produced a testbed special multifoil that comfortably out-performed the mythical 200 min wool even in the hotbox. All conventional insulations are in fact testbed specials, designed solely to excel in the artificial conditions of the hotbox test, without (perish the thought) any verification under real-life conditions.
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2009 edited
     
    Paul Mitton! Well he went very quiet when I asked him a queston he didn't like!

    (Now why this usptart young thread?)
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2009 edited
     
    Posted By: biffvernonhe went very quiet when I asked him a queston he didn't like
    so did you Biff - you've stonewalled any response to my answer to your key question 'what do layers 2-6 do?', upon which your scepticism about MFs depends.
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2009
     
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