Sun, 26 May 2013 03:58:10 +0100 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63194#Comment_63194 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63194#Comment_63194 Thu, 01 Oct 2009 16:37:34 +0100 davemcd
I am finally in the fortunate position to have detailed planning permission and am looking forward to the next stage of my build. As my house is being built in the scottish borders I have to apply for building warrant first so the next decision is how to build the house. The options I have looked at on the basis that a tried and tested method would present fewer problems are timber-frame with block work outer skin but I seen to get conflicting advice as to what is the most cost effective regarding whether I should use a kit supplier or get the frame built on site. Also builders seem reluctant to provide estimates until you have the building warrant and I need to instruct the structural engineer regarding the build method before I can get the building warrant. At the moment I seem to be going round in circles so any advice in connection with getting the most cost effective solution would be greatly appreciated.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63196#Comment_63196 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63196#Comment_63196 Thu, 01 Oct 2009 16:53:40 +0100 Timber
Depends on how big and complex the house in, and if you can find a set of builders competant enough to build it properly!

Timber frame lends itself so well to factory production, I would be tempted to get it premade in a factory so you can put it up fast on site, rather then spending the time making the panels on site - more chance of getting really wet!

Timber]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63200#Comment_63200 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63200#Comment_63200 Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:17:59 +0100 tony http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63202#Comment_63202 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63202#Comment_63202 Thu, 01 Oct 2009 18:40:38 +0100 aa44 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63203#Comment_63203 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63203#Comment_63203 Thu, 01 Oct 2009 19:30:01 +0100 tony http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63208#Comment_63208 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63208#Comment_63208 Thu, 01 Oct 2009 20:37:32 +0100 biffvernon http://thatroundhouse.info/ , but it seems to be a different Tony.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63209#Comment_63209 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63209#Comment_63209 Thu, 01 Oct 2009 21:03:40 +0100 Tuna
Find builders (or kit makers) who you like, who you can work with and who have recommendations you can follow up. Take a look at their other buildings and see if they are 'at your level' and care about the things you care about. Talk to them about energy efficiency and the other issues that are important to you.

Once you've found someone who will not drive you mad, rip you off or blow your budget, go with whatever building method they are happy with. They should be able to talk you through the pros and cons.

You can get excellent results from just about any building method if you pay attention to the details. That depends on your builders understanding the issues and having the focus to follow through with well implemented construction. Our builders (for fixing out our SIPS house) are dyed in the wool traditionalists with very little interest in 'green' building. However, they do care about getting the details right and one of them had his stick built home air tested at 2.5 air changes/ hour which is outstanding given they aren't trying to set any records or build 'eco' homes (standard builds typically come in at around 8, the building regs require something below 10).

It's easy to get obsessed about 'perfect' figures, but the bottom line is that you've got to get through the building process intact to enjoy your home. If you're selfbuilding, the only way to do that is to find people who can deliver for you. You can over spec the construction with just about any building technique to get the thermal qualities you require (within budget), but you can't over spec your builders if you find yourselves stuck with duds.

So far we couldn't be more happy with our SIPs selfbuild. We chose it because the thin wall construction makes the most of our restricted footprint. However, the most important part of the process so far has been finding builders and suppliers that have been excellent to work with.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63227#Comment_63227 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63227#Comment_63227 Fri, 02 Oct 2009 10:34:52 +0100 davemcd
Again, many thanks for you help and suggestions.

David]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63229#Comment_63229 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63229#Comment_63229 Fri, 02 Oct 2009 10:43:26 +0100 tony
no heating system, I ve even got a bat box made from off cuts.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63237#Comment_63237 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63237#Comment_63237 Fri, 02 Oct 2009 13:19:14 +0100 djh http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63314#Comment_63314 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63314#Comment_63314 Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:47:23 +0100 davemcd
Tony, I have had a look at your house and was wondering how the build costs compare with timber frame etc bearing in mind that I will be using a main contractor for most of the build. I am also trying to design the house so that I do not need a heating system so I would be interested in knowing what u-values you achieved in order to dispense with the heating system and any other useful tips along this line.

Many Thanks

David]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63318#Comment_63318 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63318#Comment_63318 Mon, 05 Oct 2009 10:54:09 +0100 Viking House
SIPS panels insulated with PUR rely on trapped Pentane gas for their high Lambda values. This gas migrates over 8-10 years leaving you with a U-value no better than if you had insulated with Polysterene. 8 year old Dutch Polyeurethene External Insulation tested lately by the Irish Agreament Board showed Lambda values of 0.028-0.030 and rising. The foil on Kingspan was designed to stop the gas migrating, but the OSB board is much more Vapour open so the gas migrates much quicker.

Water Vapour condenses on the concrete in the middle of ICF walls causing fungus and mould growth. The internal insulation layer stops the concrete heating up, our "Therm" tests showed a temperature of 8 degrees for the internal concrete, the EPS is vapour open as is the plasterboard so the Water Vapour will get as far as the concrete and condense.

When we were choosing build methods for the company over 8 years ago we went through all those options and settled on these 2 http://www.viking-house.ie/timber-frame-house, and http://www.viking-house.ie/quinnlite-passive-house, for cost and practicality reasons.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63322#Comment_63322 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63322#Comment_63322 Mon, 05 Oct 2009 11:30:46 +0100 tony http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63323#Comment_63323 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63323#Comment_63323 Mon, 05 Oct 2009 11:48:28 +0100 MarkBennett Posted By: Viking HouseHi Dave

SIPS panels insulated with PUR rely on trapped Pentane gas for their high Lambda values. This gas migrates over 8-10 years leaving you with a U-value no better than if you had insulated with Polysterene. 8 year old Dutch Polyeurethene External Insulation tested lately by the Irish Agreament Board showed Lambda values of 0.028-0.030 and rising. The foil on Kingspan was designed to stop the gas migrating, but the OSB board is much more Vapour open so the gas migrates much quicker.

VH - do you have a link to a test report on the Dutch insulation?

Review this thread for comments regarding PU/PIR ageing:
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4539&page=1#Item_13]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63325#Comment_63325 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63325#Comment_63325 Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:03:53 +0100 Viking House
That information was leaked to me un-officially by a source in the IAB, the results have been sent to the PUR/PIR manufacturers stating that their manufacture test model is incorrect and that in practice the product doesn't perform as well as stated. This information is not available to me officially so I can't send you a link but my IAB source used to work for Kingspan and knows the product inside out!

The German Fraunhofer Institute has recently stated that they will give PUR a Lambda of 0.041 for houses because houses have to be built to last for 100 years or more so they will not give PUR a better Lambda than that when its reduced by more than 50% in the first 10 years. Fraunhofer are assuming that all the trapped gas will be replaced by air in a few years, hence the 0.041 Lambda. They were not convinced that the gas stayed trapped forever like the PUR manufacturers.

I posted a link here previously about an Icelandic test on district heating piped insulated with PUR whose Lambda dropped to 0.032.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63331#Comment_63331 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63331#Comment_63331 Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:43:44 +0100 Tuna
Tony is of course right. Future alterations could cause problems if they introduce thermal bridging or weaken the structure. Being a brick and block man, he sees this as a problem with SIPs and similar technologies, but the same applies to any other form of construction - you can't just knock holes in a brick wall and hope that it will stay standing. Thermal bridging and detailing around new openings are as much an issue with brick and block or timber frame as SIPs. That said, having seen how our building went up, I'd be far more confident of good detailing around an extension to a SIPs home than I would around a brick and block - joints are continuous and straight, sealed and nailed and a visual check will confirm if they're good. A structural engineer can confirm if they're designed correctly for the structure.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63343#Comment_63343 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63343#Comment_63343 Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:17:21 +0100 sipman
if you decide to go the SIPs route, choose a system that has a BBA certificate.

regarding Lambada values

All lambada values quoted are the aged lambada i.e not fresh product. The values quoted are aged values i.e 25 years, therefore for the first years of the products life thermal performance is greater than that published.

The zero ODP blowing agent does not migrate from the core of the product, however dependent on product thickness and facings , as with all CLOSED cell insulants CO2 has the potential to migrate in over this 25 year aging period.

The British Board of Agrement (BBA) will only deal with aged values (25 years), which highlights the importance of using products that have independant accreditation.

SIPMAN]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63385#Comment_63385 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63385#Comment_63385 Mon, 05 Oct 2009 20:51:17 +0100 Viking House
What do you do with your house when all the Pentane Gas has migrated from the insulation? Rebuild it? Renovate it to a better insulation standard? Or build it right in the first place using insulation that holds its Lambda value!]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63401#Comment_63401 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63401#Comment_63401 Mon, 05 Oct 2009 23:46:09 +0100 Tuna
With respect, you're making rather a meal of things. You answered your first question ("Where is the 25 year old SIPS house") later on ("They then heat and cool... to accelerate the ageing process"). Rather a gross over simplification of things, but I understand that to be the standard practise to estimate performance over 25 years is to employ artificial ageing (heat/cold/light etc.) cycles? How do you estimate the performance of the house you built last year?

Even imagining that every last molecule of pentane eventually goes, you're still left with a house with 5 or more inches of insulation that is sag free, is not hydroscopic, is of no interest to vermin or insects, doesn't rot and still does the basic job of providing insulation. Last I heard, all of the lambda values you've quoted are still well inside the category of insulants?

David, I'm carefully avoiding mentioning who supplied our SIPS panels as this forum is very cautious about product placement. If you look at my other postings, you can find out. We found them through this forum and were impressed by their enthusiasm and pride in the houses they had produced, which had been featured in some of the home building magazines. We obtained quotes from four of the main SIPs suppliers in the UK, and their quote remained competitive so they got the job. Our builders for follow on trades had done good work for us in a previous house, and we had originally found them through a friend's recommendation.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63424#Comment_63424 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63424#Comment_63424 Tue, 06 Oct 2009 10:53:16 +0100 Viking House
This is like saying- "I will half fill a kettle with water and boil it, because I have a lid on the kettle only 10% of the steam will escape, the rest of the steam will stay in the kettle".

According to the Fraunhofer Institute, 6 inches of Polysterene or Rockwool has the same U-value as 6 inches of PUR because they all eventually have trapped air as an insulant- .

PU foam has a similar vapour resistivity to dry wood which readily takes in Water Vapour so stating that PU is non hygroscopic is of no benefit to PU. It means that PU can take in Water Vapour and cannot get rid of it easily so it gets wet.

PUR should be sold stating the following "The Lambda is 0.035 but for a few years it performs better".

I'm also guilty because I've built houses claiming good U-values for windows insulated with Krypton which migrates after 15 years and is bad for the Environment.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63466#Comment_63466 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63466#Comment_63466 Tue, 06 Oct 2009 17:00:37 +0100 davemcd
I had a look at the Viking House website and liked the look of both the timber-frame and quinnlite houses, unfortunately the company is based in Dublin. Any idea how the build costs compared to timber-frame or sips construction methods.

Regards

David]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63501#Comment_63501 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63501#Comment_63501 Tue, 06 Oct 2009 23:51:26 +0100 Viking House Can you get Quinnlite or Aircrete blocks there?]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63540#Comment_63540 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63540#Comment_63540 Wed, 07 Oct 2009 15:52:11 +0100 sipman
I can assure you I am not offended, can you post a copy of the research from the Fraunhofer institute, because if what you are saying is correct the building industry has been grossly mislead not just by the manufacturers but by the independent accreditation bodies .My understanding is that the lambda values are calculated in accordance with EN13165 which is a European standard.

I and I think many others would be very interested if someone with direct knowledge of the testing procedures and results could post some information.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63557#Comment_63557 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63557#Comment_63557 Wed, 07 Oct 2009 18:48:52 +0100 Viking House This database relys on test results delivered by independant bodies.

Here's the link: http://www.masea-ensan.com/masea/
Click on "Datenbanken" (Databank) and go to "Dammstoffe" (insulation material) and then scroll down to "Schaum-Polyurethan mit diffussionsdichter Umhuellung_30" (transl.: ' Foam-polyurethane with diffusiontight covering-30 ')

There read the following official statement from the test body:

"Wärmetechnische Daten
Messwerte der Wärmeleitfähigkeit (Laborwerte, trocken) je nach Typ und Herstellung zwischen 0,019 und 0,033 W/(mK) - keine baupraktisch anwendbaren Werte
Baupraktische Rechenwerte der Wärmeleitfähigkeit sollten nicht unter 0,041 W/(mK) liegen (Angabe nach DIN 4108 und nach TGL für PUR-Schaum ohne Deckschicht oder mit diffusionsdurchlässiger Beplankung)
Nach TGL gelten für PUR-Schauam in diffusionsdichter Umhüllung (z.B. Metall) 0,029 bis 0,035 W/(mK)
Im Kühlhausbau bei Minustemperaturen 0,033 W/(mK) als praxisgerecht ansetzbar
Langsames, begrenztes Ansteigen der Wärmeleitfähigkeit infolge Diffusionsausgleichs des Zellgases mit atmosphärischer Luft"

I will try to tranlate:
'Thermal technical data:
The measured thermal conductivity (laboratory values, dry) values depending on the type and manufacturer are between 0.019 and 0.033W/(mK) - these however, are not practical building applicable values.
The Practical Building thermal conductivity values should not be less than 0.041W/(mK)
(statement according to DIN 4108 as well as TGL for PUR-foam without coverage or with diffusion open coverage)
According to TGL:- PUR-foam with a diffusion tight metal cover should use a calculation value of 0.029 - 0.035W/(mK). For cold storage construction with minus temperatures, 0.033W/mK should be used as the practical value due to the slower thermal conductivity increase (caused by diffussion equalization of the cellular gas with the atmospheric air) at lower temperatures.

So we have it here, independant official asessment of what happens in reality to gas filled foams.
The conductivity value usually given by the manufacturers is irrelevant.
Metal covered gas filled PUR foams get 0.035W/mK and OSB covered gas filled PUR foams get 0.041W/m.

http://www.viking-house.ie]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63789#Comment_63789 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63789#Comment_63789 Sat, 10 Oct 2009 00:32:14 +0100 cookie
Timber frame can be manufactured offsite, and often a whole house can be delivered on one sometimes two wagons. It goes up quick, you can make it water tight and fit out the inside while the external finish is going up, not that you need to worry about that in sunny, dry, windless Scotland

I'm currently building an ICF house in Yorkshire for my client who I meet from here. I've not heard the one about mould growth on the concrete on ICF's before, sounds like old wifes tail told by anti ICF builders to me but I'm not the fountain of all knowledge so remain open minded. The EPS meets vapour barrier standards (well it does on the block type we've chosen) and if your not using MVHR on an ICF build then you should be shot, so moisture build up shouldn't be a problem anyway.

Cost wise, well ICF's prices are pitched so overall build costs are simliar to other build types (once you take into account insulation etc) but I was surprised at the cost of cladding materials.

cheers

Cookie]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63859#Comment_63859 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63859#Comment_63859 Sun, 11 Oct 2009 19:19:52 +0100 Viking House
If you take a piece of Polysterene of various densities you can blow through it, so its Vapour Open. I'm not against ICF, we've often used it for building cellars which don't generate a lot of moisture, but I agree, HRV is crucial in an ICF house.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63892#Comment_63892 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4622&Focus=63892#Comment_63892 Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:20:27 +0100 Tuna Posted By: Viking HouseThe ICF system which has 35% or (less) of the Polysterene inside the concrete is the safest to use, as the temperature of the concrete is warmer when you have 2/3rds of the insulation on the outside.

If you take a piece of Polysterene of various densities you can blow through it, so its Vapour Open. I'm not against ICF, we've often used it for building cellars which don't generate a lot of moisture, but I agree, HRV is crucial in an ICF house.

I would have thought that if you're building to any of the Passiv/CSH standards, HRV is necessary, or unavoidable depending on your personal feelings about it. The vapour open qualities of EPS depend how it's been processed - it can be produced with a more continuous, harder outer surface, or with the internal cell structure open on the surface.]]>