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General: Best way to fasten shelves, curtain rails etc to insulated plasterboard walls?

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    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeNov 13th 2009
     
    Anyone had practical experience of this?

    The boards are 60mm insulation and 12.5 plasterboard. e.g. Kingspan K7 K8.

    thanks

    Robin
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeNov 13th 2009 edited
     
    Had that in our previous house. It's a pain. Ended up cutting deep holes and inserting wood blocks/cubes for the curtain rails in one room. Blocks were stuck in with "no more nails" or a similar builders adhesive (test on sample of the foam first to ensure it isn't disolved) . Wasn't really very satisfied with this.

    If it's a block wall could try screwing right through into those using something like Concrete screws. They need a pilot hole the right size..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djotP-sR4mU
  3.  
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeNov 13th 2009
     
    Thanks for comments, it's and ICF wall with extra insulation on the inside. So anything solid is about 130mm in.

    Maybe we could fix battens/block for curtain rails at least before plasterboarding? I'm intending to have pretty heavy insulating curtains.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeNov 13th 2009
     
    Oh it's not boarded yet? In that case definitly plan aheada and fix large battens securely. Perhaps look at boarding some areas with 15mm WPB. eg kitchen walls?
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeNov 13th 2009 edited
     
    I still think the screws I linked to will work. They are especially good where PUR is laminated to plasterboard. For fixing thicker material you can substitute the conventional part of the srew fixing for longer versions [most self tapping screws will work at the correct guage] But I would also use something like gripfill between batten and wall as well - will stay there forever!

    I've even used them for medium sized radiators brackets backed up with gripfill - no problems.
  7.  
    If it's just the curtains you're worried about, could you just hand the rails from the ceiling?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2009
     
    Hope no one's thinking of drilling holes in the VCL that lies between the plasterboard and the insulation?
    • CommentAuthormark_s
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2009
     
    http://www.screwfix.com/prods/99201/Fixings/Cavity-Fixings/Rawlplug-Interset-M5-x-40-Pack-of-20

    This sort of fixing is pretty solid - or at least I find them better than the ones suggested above.

    There are problems with the thickness of what you want to fasten though.

    I'm interested in replies because I have a few curtain rails to put up....
  10.  
    Posted By: fostertomHope no one's thinking of drilling holes in the VCL that lies between the plasterboard and the insulation?


    If you mean the foil layer [if there is one] then I'm afraid so, otherwise magic wand required :)
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2009
     
    Posted By: fostertomHope no one's thinking of drilling holes in the VCL that lies between the plasterboard and the insulation?


    It's ok he''ll put screws in the holes :-)
  12.  
    Hi all,

    Is there any way to plaster over ply wood? e.g. by putting some sort of metal mesh over the ply? I'm about to dry-line our bedrooms with PIR insulation. I'm considering something like this:

    * Brick wall
    * 65mm PIR insulation
    * ply wood (screwed into the brick wall through the insulation)
    * plaster

    The goal is to have a wall surface which is easy to install shelves into. I've read that it's not possible to plaster only ply wood so perhaps I'll have to put a layer of plasterboard over the ply?

    Thanks,
    Jack
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2012
     
    Posted By: mark_shttp://www.screwfix.com/prods/99201/Fixings/Cavity-Fixings/Rawlplug-Interset-M5-x-40-Pack-of-20" rel="nofollow" >http://www.screwfix.com/prods/99201/Fixings/Cavity-Fixings/Rawlplug-Interset-M5-x-40-Pack-of-20

    This sort of fixing is pretty solid - or at least I find them better than the ones suggested above.

    There are problems with the thickness of what you want to fasten though.

    I'm interested in replies because I have a few curtain rails to put up....


    These (IMO) are about as solid as you can get on plasterboard. If fixing curtains I find it best to fix a piece of wood say 2" x 1" the length of the curtain track and then fit the curtain track to the wood, this way you spread the load and can put as many fixings as you want depending on the weight of the curtains.
    • CommentAuthorPaul_B
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2012
     
    Why not go with Fermacell rather that plasterboard? I think a standard board is good for several 10's of Kg from a normal screw
    • CommentAuthorCerisy
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2012
     
    I used to use the butterfly plastic type plugs in my previous UK house, but as I couldn't find them here I started using the metal spiral type plug that you turn into the pasterboard. Very effective and can carry substantial weights. For heavy curtains that will create quite a turning load on the fixings rather than just a vertical load, I would also fix a batten to the plasterboard, with a few metal plugs and then fix the curtain rail to the batten. Certainly works here and the missus loves her fully lined heavy curtains!
    • CommentAuthorpmagowan
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2012
     
    This is like the detail problem I have for EWI and attaching downpipes etc. I have come up with 2 methods (through this forum). Putting a square plate of plyboard recessed into the outer face of insulation and fixed right through to the wall, thus spreading the laod. This can be plastered over and then fixed to with ordinary screws. Cutting a circle of insulation out right back to the wall then fitting in a plastic tube of the same size filled with squirty foam with a disc of ply on the outside fixed by a long screw through the middle. The tube acts as a firm brace for the ply to be compressed against and leaves a good spot for fixing anything else onto.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2012
     
    Posted By: dan_aka_jack..........Is there any way to plaster over ply wood? e.g. by putting some sort of metal mesh over the ply? I'm about to dry-line our bedrooms with PIR insulation. I'm considering something like this:
    * Brick wall
    * 65mm PIR insulation
    * ply wood (screwed into the brick wall through the insulation)
    * plaster
    The goal is to have a wall surface which is easy to install shelves into. I've read that it's not possible to plaster only ply wood so perhaps I'll have to put a layer of plasterboard over the ply?


    You could use Fermacell as Paul_B above suggests instead of the ply, but I have on occasion used the plywood technique on interior walls, but always with plasterboard over.
    • CommentAuthorJanitor
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2012 edited
     
    I'd have thought that ply would need to be around 12mm to be of use... and as it can't be plastered, that sounds like quite an expensive way of providing fixing for surface mounted items... unless of course I'm missing other benefits of ply that is..?
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2012
     
    If it were me, I would either use 150 mm long plastic plug and screw 'frame' fixings to secure a 1x6 batten to the wall through the insulation plasterboard and then just screw the curtain rails onto the batten.

    Or, if planning in advance, screw a batten to the wall before boarding and then trim out the insulation on the back of the plasterboard to fit over the batten. It sounds like there is a reasonable amount of insulation in the ICF so the localised reduction should not be much of a problem.
  20.  
    What we do over here (since we use plasterboard) is just put in extra furring strips (battens) in the locations where you want to fasten stuff - if you're using furring strips to hold the insulation. In new timber frame construction, you just put extra wood where you think you might need it ... and then take a photo for future reference. I would never attempt to plaster over plywood - it will surely crack unless you put some kind of metal lath (like diamond lath) over it first. Just go with plasterboard!

    By the way, almost no-one here plasters over plasterboard - we just tape and fill the seams with joint compound. If you do it well it's as smooth as plaster anyway and with the proper corner beads, doesn't crack at change-of-plane.

    Paul in Montreal.
  21.  
    Thanks for all the replies. I think we'll just go ahead and install plasterboard laminated to PIR insulation. For the curtain rail, we'll install wood behind the plasterboard to screw into. For stuff that we currently haven't planned (like shelves etc) we'll retrofit some sort of solid fitting. I like pmagowan's idea of using "a plastic tube of the same size filled with squirty foam with a disc of ply on the outside fixed by a long screw through the middle" for really solid fittings.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2012
     
    Posted By: Paul in Montreal..........." furring strips (battens) in the locations where you want to fasten stuff - if you're using furring strips to hold the insulation. In new timber frame construction, you just put extra wood where you think you might need it ... and then take a photo for future reference. "

    There's nothing wrong with that technique Paul, until you redecorate/refurb and the missus wants things, shelves of kitchen cabinets etc in a different place and you're back to square one.

    "I would never attempt to plaster over plywood - it will surely crack unless you put some kind of metal lath (like diamond lath) over it first. Just go with plasterboard!"

    You plasterboard over the ply, and then skim if required. that way you have a whole surface capable of load bearing to some extent.

    "By the way, almost no-one here plasters over plasterboard - we just tape and fill the seams with joint compound. If you do it well it's as smooth as plaster anyway and with the proper corner beads, doesn't crack at change-of-plane."

    We do that too Paul, with taper edge boards the thechnique is great for long straight wall runs as in commercial offices etc., especially where tough commercial wall coverings are used, Often, in awkward domestic interiors with much cutting the full benefit of the method is lost and external corners/windows can present a problem. although corner edging on a roll has made it easier to achieve a better finish. Wallpapering and its eventual removal can also present problems if you glue the stuff direct to the plasterboard. Skimming gets rid of that problem. Fermacell with it's strong construction is a way out, as corners can be glued with jointing compound although sanding the stuff afterwards is a devil of a job it sets like iron.
    Mike
    • CommentAuthorpmagowan
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2012
     
    I think the plastic tube idea was Fostertom's originally.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2012
     
    You could probably hang shelves off hardibacker board which I think can be plastered.
    • CommentAuthoraa44
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2012 edited
     
    If you are fitting standard plasterboard sheets on top of the insulation then have a look at this stuff.

    http://www.wind-lock.com/DSN/wwwwindlockcom/Content/PDF/ICF/ICF-Grapplers.pdf

    It's a sort of wire mesh that sits behind the plasterboard and provides a structure for screws etc. to grip into. I am building an ICF house which has very similar issues and this is a common solution for ICF. I've not yet reached the point where I need it so I haven't tried to get hold of it but some of the UK ICF distributors (e.g. QuadLock) list it on their accessories pages so they ought to be able to get hold of it.
    • CommentAuthoraa44
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2012
     
    A further thought. In ICF houses, if you want to hang really heavy stuff (e.g. kitchen cupboards) from the walls then the standard solution is to strip the foam back to the concrete and attach 2x4 battens to the concrete. This seems to be the only way to provide really secure fixing points.
  27.  
    This is probably a dumb question.. but... ply wood is more expensive than ply from B&Q (softwood Ply 2440x1220x18mm is £29; whilst 2400x1200x9mm OSB is £16). I assume OSB will work fine for installing between insulation and plasterboard?

    Having said this, I'm still planning on just using insulated plasterboard. If someone made a pre-fabricated insulation+OSB+plasterboard product then I'd consider using that; but I need to do the current job fairly swiftly.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2012
     
    Spacetherm drylining from Proctor comes in variants with ply behind the plasterboard I believe, though that's with aerogel, plus an alternative Fermacell instead of plasterboard, just as a couple of examples. So I suspect it may exist, and Google may be your friend.

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorBeau
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2012
     
    I fitted 9mm OSB behind our plasterboard walls it cost £8 a sheet and all kitchen cupboards are very secure.
  30.  
    Yeah, I've done a bit of googling but no joy yet...

    Thinking about this, it wouldn't actually be very hard to make my own insulation+OSB+plasterboard laminate. I only need 11 boards. The first step of my building process would be to glue (with gripfill) the insulation+11mm OSB+9.5mm plasterboard sandwiches and then mechanically fix this entire sandwich to the wall using lots of frame fixings. Obviously, cutting holes for sockets will be a little trickier than in plain plasterboard so I'll hire a jigsaw for a couple of days.

    Any thoughts? Does this have implications for fire regs etc?

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