Green Building Forum - what's wrong with sailing ships? Mon, 15 Jun 2026 10:24:37 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73794#Comment_73794 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73794#Comment_73794 Sun, 07 Feb 2010 20:05:18 +0000 arthur what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73795#Comment_73795 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73795#Comment_73795 Sun, 07 Feb 2010 20:20:39 +0000 James Norton http://www.solarsailor.com.au/media_aquatankers_070117.htm

http://www.kiteship.com/]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73796#Comment_73796 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73796#Comment_73796 Sun, 07 Feb 2010 20:25:38 +0000 James Norton
J

:wink:]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73821#Comment_73821 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73821#Comment_73821 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 09:15:50 +0000 Bowman
Kites may have some small impact, but not I fear very much.]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73823#Comment_73823 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73823#Comment_73823 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 09:24:58 +0000 cookie
Although I like the idea!]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73831#Comment_73831 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73831#Comment_73831 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:06:13 +0000 fostertom Posted By: James Nortonthis really should be for the 'green living' forumNo, we can afford diversions like this, as building has to be within the broad context, and because such 'off topics' can emerge as key to mainsteam 'on topics' e.g. electric cars as a national battery bank enabling much greater grid tolerance of interruptible/renewable generation.]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73833#Comment_73833 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73833#Comment_73833 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:11:35 +0000 fostertom Posted By: arthurRailways and surfaced roads make overland transport much more efficient no doubtIn fact canals always remained much cheaper than rail, for slow bulk transport, and only demised because the railway cos bought them up and shut them down. Railways made their profits from passengers, perishables and parcels. Slow bulk goods was always the poor relation that caused more the railways more costs and traffic-obstruction than they were worth - it's a restraint-of-trade scandal that the canals weren't developed in parallel - how would that have served us if still in operation nowadays?]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73834#Comment_73834 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73834#Comment_73834 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:12:42 +0000 marktime

The rest is fascinating and shines a light upon Darwin's later thinking.

Cambridge University Press
Edited by R.D. Keynes.]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73835#Comment_73835 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73835#Comment_73835 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:17:06 +0000 fostertom what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73837#Comment_73837 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73837#Comment_73837 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:25:34 +0000 James Norton

J]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73871#Comment_73871 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73871#Comment_73871 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:38:53 +0000 RobinB
Canals more than sail, I would like to see brought back in to more use. I'm sure I read Sainsbury or Tesco were planning to move goods into central London by canal but I never heard that it actually happened or was any more than a publicity stunt. Nice idea though. It should be part of the Slow Movement*, I guess they dont get around to sorting thing out very quickly.

*"The Slow Movement began with a protest against the opening of a McDonald's restaurant in Piazza di Spagna, Rome that sparked the creation of the Slow Food organization. Over time, this developed into a subculture in other areas, such as Slow Travel, Slow Shopping, and Slow Design.

Geir Berthelsen and his creation of The World Institute of Slowness[1] presented a vision in 1999 for an entire 'Slow Planet' and a need to teach the world the way of Slow." quote from WIkipedia]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73876#Comment_73876 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73876#Comment_73876 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:45:19 +0000 James Norton Posted By: RobinBDidn't you want to be a pirate James?

good point....

...keep all the sailing threads up everyone, all very relevant...

J]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73879#Comment_73879 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73879#Comment_73879 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 16:19:37 +0000 Bowman what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73880#Comment_73880 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73880#Comment_73880 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 17:05:52 +0000 fostertom what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73881#Comment_73881 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73881#Comment_73881 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 17:15:56 +0000 Bowman what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73883#Comment_73883 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73883#Comment_73883 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 17:25:14 +0000 jamesingram
They cant sail head to wind . ??]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73884#Comment_73884 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73884#Comment_73884 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 17:26:50 +0000 fostertom
Or you mean, when PV powered and not in use? Even if feathered, furled (wrapped tight around the mast) or even un-stepped (lowered) - essential in storm, presumably, with modern tall, shallow-draft hulls?]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73885#Comment_73885 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73885#Comment_73885 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 17:27:52 +0000 fostertom Posted By: jamesingramThey cant sail head to windThat's the point of vertical-turbine-type sails - they don't care which direction the wind's coming.]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73887#Comment_73887 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73887#Comment_73887 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 17:39:14 +0000 bot de paille what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73888#Comment_73888 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73888#Comment_73888 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 17:44:12 +0000 Paul in Montreal Posted By: arthurit's less recognised that ocean transport is a huge problem too.In what way is it a problem? Didn't I read somewhere that it's often cheaper (in all terms) to ship certain things from China to "the West" than source them locally? Largely in part because bulk ocean transport is so efficient?

Paul in Montreal.]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73890#Comment_73890 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73890#Comment_73890 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:17:45 +0000 arthur
I'm not sure why speed is such an objection to sail boats - cookie, you say three weeks is too long to cross the Atlantic but we import nearly everything from China and it must take at least three weeks to get stuff from there even now. Time just isn't really much of an isssue for some stuff.
Obviously ships could still have engines if they needed them or for going against the wind but if fuel became expensive enough would sails still not be worth it?

Surely modern materials would offer some improvements for modern sailships . Racing yachts use them. (Biff might not approve though!)

(sorry if this in the wrong section or wrong forum but thanks for the interest - you're all obviously bored with building!)]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73891#Comment_73891 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73891#Comment_73891 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:38:02 +0000 Paul in Montreal Posted By: arthurWell shipping emissions are pretty enormous I thought. I was looking into cross-ocean passenger travel and was shocked that passage on a container ship costs more than flying. Ok so that may be largely because there's no mass market but it made me think that there's no reason really why going by boat should be cheap or low in energy use. Water has a lot more resistance than air after all.Travel on container boats is like going on a super-high class cruise. Price is not related to energy cost at all. It costs more than air because it takes longer (more food to provide etc.). Water has more resistance, but the cross sectional area of a cargo ship is very small compared to its net cargo weight so the energy cost is relatively low.

Paul in Montreal.]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73902#Comment_73902 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73902#Comment_73902 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:09:05 +0000 bot de paille
One giant container ship can emit almost the same amount of cancer and asthma-causing chemicals as 50m cars, study finds

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/apr/09/shipping-pollution


REPORT: Pollution from 15 of world's biggest ships equal that of world's 760m cars

by Jeremy Korzeniewski (RSS feed) on Jun 2nd 2009 at 1:57PM

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/02/report-pollution-from-15-of-worlds-biggest-ships-equal-that-o/]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73908#Comment_73908 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73908#Comment_73908 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:22:45 +0000 Bowman
Shipping emissions are tiny compared to most other forms of transport.
Speed is an issue because lack of it ties up a huge amount of stock doing nothing. Time is always an issue.
Sails would rarely be worth it, they wear out quickly, they are hugely expensive, and handling them takes a great deal of effort and machinery. (With the possible exception of kites.)
Modern materials are great but not that great. Racing yacht are fast, but many of the Clipper records have only just fallen in the last ten years or so.

Even if oil runs out ships could run quite happily on coal.

A great deal could and should be done to improve particulate emissions in particular but shipping really isn't something we should worry too much about. There are much bigger fish to fry.]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73918#Comment_73918 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73918#Comment_73918 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:38:38 +0000 Henry Sears Posted By: fostertomNo, we can afford diversions like this, as building has to be within the broad context,

Indeed, I was only thinking the other day about how much today's eco-builders could learn from the amazing caulking techniques that allow a butt jointed wooden ship's deck to resist the ingress of waves and rain, using relatively natural and sustainable materials (hemp fibre and stockholm tar, I believe).]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73919#Comment_73919 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73919#Comment_73919 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:45:00 +0000 Bowman
(Though I think the caulk might help too.)]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73923#Comment_73923 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73923#Comment_73923 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 22:15:35 +0000 Henry Sears Posted By: BowmanHenry, it's the water that keeps the water out! Wood swells as it gets damp, many old boats can't be kept out of the water for very long.

(Though I think the caulk might help too.)

Absolutely true, I have owned wooden boats my self! But the deck is not constantly wet like the hull, is it?]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73926#Comment_73926 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73926#Comment_73926 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 22:34:55 +0000 Bowman what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73931#Comment_73931 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73931#Comment_73931 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 22:44:34 +0000 fostertom Posted By: Henry Searsthe deck is not constantly wet like the hull, is itOften enough, surely - not like anything on dry land]]> what's wrong with sailing ships? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73932#Comment_73932 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5309&Focus=73932#Comment_73932 Mon, 08 Feb 2010 22:49:24 +0000 fostertom Posted By: bot de pailleOne giant container ship can emit almost the same amount of cancer and asthma-causing chemicals as 50m cars
Posted By: bot de paillePollution from 15 of world's biggest ships equal that of world's 760m cars
This has absolutely nothing to do with ships versus cars (or trucks or trains) - it's solely about burning low-grade suphurous fuel. another issue altogether.

"The problem isn't necessarily with the ships' 109,000-horsepower engines that endlessly spin away 24 hours a day, 280 days a year. In fact, these powerplants are some of the most fuel efficient units in the world. The real issue lies with the heavy fuel oil the ships run on and the almost complete lack of regulations applied to the giant exhaust stacks of these container ships."]]>