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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

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    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2010
     
    A neighbour is planning to cut into his chimney breasts and fit rigid flue liners for his woodburner. I have never heard of this before, and thought a double-wall flexible stainless steel liner would be adequate. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience of this?

    The Old House Handbook says stainless flexible liners last 10-15 years. I wouldn't mind having something more durable - but not if it's a lot of work. We are considering a small (5kW) wood burner for room heating only.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2010 edited
     
    I don't know if you are aware rhamdu, there are different stainless grades of flue liners. The high grade twinwalls I guess would have a greater life than 10-15 years. Insulating between the liner and the brick is also advisable. I used vermiculite but I understand you can use LECA. When I replaced my original SS single wall 5" liner after 25 years in order to install a 6" twinwall the original was fine, no signs of deterioration.
    •  
      CommentAuthorali.gill
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2010
     
    I worked on a job where the farmhouse chimney was lined with pumped refractory concrete that was poured in after forming the flue with an inflated 'sock'.
    It was great and pinpointed what would have been potential air leaks in the masonry.
    Take a look at the doc attached to this url
    www.solidfuel.co.uk/pdfs/lining_old_chimneys.doc
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2010 edited
     
    There are two grades of stainless steel used for flexible liners, 316 and 904. The latter is more durable and is normally used on multifuel/coal burners. 904 is about twice the price of 316.

    Not sure how they compare on price but we found these people very helpful..

    http://www.specflue.com

    Quote:
    Life expectancy
    Under normal operating conditions and providing the liner is installed correctly by a competent person, flexible liners should last the lifetime of the appliance.

    Warranties
    Gas, Oil and 316 grade multifuel flexible liners carry a 10 year conditional warranty. 904 grade multi fuel flexible liners carry a 25 year conditional warranty. Contact us for further information. The conditions are that the flue liner is correctly sized, installed, and properly maintained, burning only approved fuels in accordance with the appliance manufacturer’s instructions.
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2010
     
    Thanks everyone, incredible information!

    Good to know 904 grade is available if we are worried about corrosion. But since we intend to burn wood only, it may be an unnecessary expense.

    I will also investigate ali.gill's inflatable-sock/refractory concrete solution. The Old House Handbook advises against it, but then Hunt and Suhr take a hard line against anything involving cement, and most of us can't afford to be so purist. (I might mention this method to my neighbour before he sets about his bedrooms with an angle grinder.)

    Loose-fill insulation around an SS flue will presumably give a better 'draw', and might prevent corrosive or inflammable compounds condensing in the flue. On the other hand you presumably miss out on a bit of heat that might otherwise have helped to warm upstairs rooms.

    Next question: if we go for a stove with an exterior air intake, is there any reason why we shouldn't draw the air from the space below a suspended timber floor? We need a bit of extra ventilation down there.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2010 edited
     
    I think the "better draw", plus your point about condensation is preferable to any minor heat transfer into the upstairs rooms.
    Regarding stove air supply, there is another fairly recent thread on the forum about that. Taking air supply from the floor void seems OK in principle provided that the floor itself is sealed, and you're not actually stealing air from the house, but I guess you're going to do that anyway. You mention extra underfloor ventilation, are there no air bricks, if not where is the stove air coming from? Some years ago I provided an external air supply to my open fire and I opted for a dedicated simple underfloor SS duct linked to a small "in brick" air collector on the outside wall. It's worked like a dream for 25 years.
  1.  
    Posted By: rhamduLoose-fill insulation around an SS flue will presumably give a better 'draw', and might prevent corrosive or inflammable compounds condensing in the flue. On the other hand you presumably miss out on a bit of heat that might otherwise have helped to warm upstairs rooms.
    It's worth remembering that this additional heat is only available when the fire is burning. The rest of the time you'll be losing heat to the chimney. It's better to insulate it, seal it with a backdraught flap when not in use &, if possible, keep it outside the thermal envelope of the house.

    David
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2010
     
    We just put the floor joists in yesterday and in due course we will be insulating, boarding and sealing the floor (all this being on account of the damp and rotten state of the old timbers). We've put new airbricks in at the front of the house, and rebuilt the sleeper walls with lots of airgaps, but the underfloor space is blocked off by solid floors at the back. Someone thoughtfully put a 100mm duct through the concrete slab to provide some through flow. Someone else, less thoughtfully, blocked the duct off at the far end when they concreted the patio. Even if we can unblock the duct, I am sure it would help if a stove was sucking air from under the floor at the back of the house. We'll see if BC can find an objection to it. Surely it's gotta be safer than the stove taking in air from the room?

    We'll probably whack some insulated plasterboard around the chimneys where they pass through the loft (which we are converting to a room), but on the ground and first floors they will get no insulation apart from any we put in the flue. It's a party wall, and therefore warm on the other side, at least on ground and first floor levels.

    Thanks everyone.
    • CommentAuthorjemhayward
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2010
     
    We got into huge problems with insurers when we mentioned our log burner and thatch on the same form. They sent a "chimney engineer" who said that we needed our flue insulated along its complete length and a through draft from the house, up the outside of the chimney to an airbrick near the the top. This would have necessitated rebuilding the chimney and replacing the 904 lining we had installed 2 years previously. We then learned from our original installers that the upper 2/3rds of the flue are insulated, and the rest is in the void of a huge inglenook chimneyso there is no possibility of heat getting into the stonework. Indeed, we have a temperature sensor on the chimney in the loft, near to the thatch and it has never triggered (50c). Insurers said that this wasn't good enough. So we got two more opinions, both saying the current installation was ok, and even got sight of a HETAS report on chimney design that suggested that the airbrick in the flue idea could be a fire risk, and would be a source of major heat loss for the house. Still no joy from the insurers. In the end we found another insurer, who was happy with the fact it was lined and asked no other questions.
    To conclude:
    ask a dozen experts and you'll get a dozen opinions
    insurers will always favour the most expensive / stupid solution
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