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Well you may have a point Tony but the context is that many substances in the typical modern home are synthetic & will likely emit toxic smoke despite fire retardants here & there.
Perhaps the answer is to veer towards the natural throughout?
Not sure if 'natural' materials are all non toxics though. Are windows similar to cable that has an additive to reduce this issue, always get the white stuff.
The danger is mainly to your pocket, because the life of plastic isn’t what the upvc manufacturers imply. A well made wooden window will always outlast a upvc one, as well as looking a bloody sight more attractive. Even a softwood window, properly maintained, will outlast a upvc one.
Incredibly, upvc companies actually get away with all kinds of crap…
Oh, and if you are heading down the line of cavity fires and dripping plastic - perhaps requirements for cavity barriers need to be reviewed instead? Perhaps the unprotected areas section of Approved Document B also needs a review with UPVC windows in mind?
I'm a woodworker, so no prizes for guessing where my views lay, but it is all about cost. Being green costs money, in some cases lots of it. To digress from the thread slightly, apologies. I've just priced up new high capacity guttering for my bungalow. Lindlab aluzinc varies from £970-£1150, Aluminium £1380 - £3200 depending on profile, all excl delivery. Cast iron, off the radar. PVC deepflow £311, inc delivery, it will last at least 30 years and no painting. Is there any wonder folks buy plastic.
Agreed, but there is no guarantee that Lindlabs galvanized aluzinc, or any aluminium powdercoating is going to last "forever" either, without some form of remedial work, to keep it looking good. I've seen lots of flaking powdercoated aluminium, it usually depends on the quality of etch priming and you've got no way of telling that.
The aluzinc isn't a powder coating, it's integral galvanised, and they give life expectancy depending on the agressiveness of the atmosphere - countryside vs seaside vs industrial zone. Aluzinc isn't necessary in 'normal' atmospheres - price up the cheaper plain galv grade.
I have had soooooo many quotes from timber window suppliers that in all honesty I would like to use instead of upvc. Money no object I would go for timber every time but my budget will not stretch to it. It may be cheaper in the long term to buy timber windows but it still must be affordable now. The real world does not allow most folk to fit timber windows. Shame but so so true.
owlman - "I'm a woodworker, so no prizes for guessing where my views lay, but it is all about cost. Being green costs money, in some cases lots of it."
I'm amazed that no one's come back with a "Ah, but not being green costs the planet."
As for upvc, I'm actually not against the stuff per se, I accept the financial arguments (though some are questionable), I just don't like the way taste seems to disappear when a upvc replacement window salesman starts quoting his specious energy-saving ecological crap and no attempt is made to come anywhere close to the original style of window. And I'm not just talking about shoving in a ghastly top-hung to replace a sash when a upvc vertical slider actually looks bloody good, I'm talking about casements as well.
As for price. Take a close look at the SafeStyle ads on television. Their first words are something like: "Look at the red writing". Crafty that. If you ignore the clown shouting at you and look at the WHITE writing going across the bottom of the screen, you'll see that unless you pay the original cash price of around three grand you will actually end up paying around eight grand. And for the record, the last job I did before retiring involved the replacement of five windows, sapele, 24mm d/g, solid brass furniture, fitted and all made good - £3,500. You can see two of the windows here:
Oh, and I can get into a so-called "security" upvc window in short order and without making a sound. To get into one of my standard wooden windows you'd need a bloody sledgehammer!
And wooden windows don't drip on you. They're actually a bugger to make burn as well because once charred combustion slows. Anyway, by the time this fire thing becomes an issue you'd already be well dead from the effects of smoke.
"And wooden windows don't drip on you. They're actually a bugger to make burn as well because once charred combustion slows. Anyway, by the time this fire thing becomes an issue you'd already be well dead from the effects of smoke. "
I was fully signed up to the "wooden windows are the only way to go" mindset until I actually got quotes this week.
3 quotes for softwood timber frames, no fancy extras. 1 quote from a local place for upvc, just out of interest.
It's almost exactly half the price of wood, similar U values. :(
Whilst I agree with the general principles about using wood instead of plastic, and wood looks nicer, I'm not convinced that it's massively less sustainable to use plastic. It's not a huge amount of the stuff, or a bad use of it. It does last (longer than unmaintained softwood anyway), and can be recycled.
Not convinced I care about the fumes if they are on fire either, as I'll probably have other things to worry about.
Anyone want to talk me down?
WHY are they so much more expensive, I can see very little justification other than it being a nicer looking "premium" product so they have to gouge for it. I hate that, and I'd hate to blow my budget on it :(
So, whats a better buy then. Buy cheap, albeit not very pretty, but reasonable U value, recyclable, PVC windows, and spend more on other aspects of home improvement, high quality draught proofing and insulation etc. Or go for the beautiful, natural, and expensive option, because lets face it the majority of builders merchant supplied cheaper wooden windows are pretty pathetic; and have nothing left for anything else, if you've got limited funds it's a no brainer to me.
PS. You could of course fit a sprinkler system with the dosh left over, if fire and fumes are a real worry to you.
Inspired by your talk of "builders merchant supplied cheaper wooden windows" I have found that my local builders merchant can supply Jeld-Wen windows, including the temptingly cheap "Sovereign Imperial" range. Actually seems to be very little in the cost difference to uPVC.
So if they can make them to size for a similar price I may be able to afford wood after all! Pathetic I can deal with - they claim to be A energy rated so fair enough.
If you're inside your house and it's burning so badly the window frames are on fire, you're already long since dead due to cyanide and cyanogen from all the PUR and PIR foam insulation (let alone the foam inside sofas etc.) that will have been burning long before the windows took hold.
PVC doesn't sustain combustion, which is part of the reason it's used to sheath cables. Of course, it will give of HCl which is nasty, but that's the least of your worries by the time your window frames are on fire!
Thanks joiner, for your earlier link to http://www.cibse.org/pdfs/Masif.pdf
People should read it!
A few comments:
1. bauxite mining (for aluminium) destroys the landscape, and any ecosystems or indigenous communities that are in the way. Bad examples are Vedanta in India, and the mine at Weipa, Queensland 2. production of aluminium and PVC are currently responsible for significant pollution, but this is not intrinsic to the process. Surely it is a matter of how much is spent on pollution control equipment. 3. it would be useful to have some carbon costs for the respective materials. It's a bit unfair to judge aluminium on its embodied energy when it is usually produced with hydro power, which is renewable. But see point 1 about landscapes and indigenous people, substituting 'dam' for 'mine'. 4. the life of timber windows varies wildly according to quality of materials, workmanship and maintenance. It probably hit an all-time low with 1970s plantation-grown, poorly seasoned softwood. But you still have to be quite an organised and solvent person to stick to the 5-year maintenance schedule.
Would appreciate some views, I had made a final choice on Alu-Clad 3G timber windows which are quoted as Uw = 0.92 W/m2K but then wondering around the EcoBuild Show, I got talking to the Internorm folks regarding their Alu-Clad Passion 3G range which are quoted as Uw = 0.85 W/m2K.
We couldn't afford the timber 0.85 windows but it seems we could afford these. I am wondering how much difference the 0.7 would make over the lifetime of the windows and whether the energy used in their production would be saved? I am also wondering if if all the comments above regarding the lifespan and pollution problems would still apply to a product from such a quality company. I guess there are different sorts of UPVC windows and the Alu-clad would offset the lifespan issues from the outside anyway. They are also made from 30% recycled plastics.
I must admit the draw of the real timber on inside appeals most but I find I can't ignore the lower 0.85 u-value.
How many sq metres would you be fitting, Phil? Multiply that by 0.07 x 24 x your degree days / 1000 to get an idea of the expected annual energy saving in kWh. I would expect this to be a very small number. As you get toward the more efficient end off the insulation spectrum the value of the difference between products becomes pretty minimal.
For 4000 HDD (quite a bit) and heating with electricity at £0.15/kWh ¹ a saving of 0.07 W/K would come to about £1 per year so for your 28 m² that's £28/year.
My gut feeling would be that good quality fitting providing good airtightness would save you more and provide better comfort than 0.07 W/m²·K.
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