Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!


powered by Surfing Waves




Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.

The AECB accepts no responsibility or liability for any errors or omissions in the content of this site. Views given in posts are not necessarily the views of the AECB.



  1.  
    I'm having an extension plastered with sand and cement render then a gypsum plaster skim. The plasterer was meant to be doing the job in 3 days, applying a scratch coat first day, then another coat of render second day then skim the third day.

    He has just rung me saying he is on another job and can only come for two days so he will be using rapid set cement and doing both render coats in one day. I don't like the sound of this and I am worried about the render dropping off.

    Any advice? I have already bought the cement (normal Blue Circle stuff in the brown and blue bag) which I thought was the right stuff for the job.
  2.  
    Hi Chris,

    There is no reason why render on internal blockwork cannot be done in a single coat in a single day. [ssuming the blockwork is reasonably true] There should be a curing period before plastering but this depends on the conditions on site [how damp the blockwork is; how hot the temperature etc] Two or three days should be fine in summer.
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeAug 27th 2007
     
    Sack him. Get someone who does lime or mud rendering. Or do it yourself.
    • CommentAuthorfuncrusher
    • CommentTimeAug 27th 2007
     
    Cracxking, not dropping off, is the great danger. If this is good blockwork, I'm surprised you need two coats of render. The trouble with cement based renders is that plasterers want them cement-rich for ease of application etc - but that provokes shrinkage and cracking. The greater the thickness, the greater the cracking. Drying quickly can exacerbate the cracking. Expect cracks to appear after 6 weeks or so.

    Another golden rule is to make sure that subsequent coats are not richer than than earlier ones, preferably weaker in fact.

    A much better alternative is 6:1:1 sand/cement/lime. Even multiple heavy coats will show good resistance to cracking, providing they are kept damp for a week or so.

    Why not put on a scratch coat yourself, say 2 days beforehand?
  3.  
    I would also go for a cement/lime mix , although there is rarely a problem with [internal] cement rich mixes provided the background itself is strong itself ie. concrete block.

    I don't agree about ease of application as a lime mix is easier to apply in my experience.

    I was taught to use 3 and 1 sand/cement for most internal work as an improver plasterer in the early eighties. The reason for this was that the work involved damproofing old houses, and I was taught [wrongly] that a rich impermeable mix was required to remedy rising damp. I used this mix internally for years, though always applying the golden rule funcrusher mentions about subsequent coats. Lime mixes were only used outside, although the idea of impermeable mixes stopping water penetration is a common misconception and can be disasterous for external walls, resulting in map cracking and 'blowing' of the render.

    Having eventually learned the error of my ways, I now use 5:1:1 Sand:Cement:Lime for most [though not all] applications. A very weak background [wall] will require weaker mixes, as will any buildings of historic value,
  4.  
    The blockwork is good and straight and bone dry (it has been up for a couple of months with the roof on) and the weather nice and hot this week, so perhaps he can do the rendering in one coat in a day.

    I can't see why he wants to use rapid set cement? I would have thought it would go off too quickly to get the mix on the walls... Should I insist he uses the normal stuff or am I worrying about nothing?
  5.  
    How big is the extension Chris? most decent plasterers are able to render several rooms in a day. I would not use fast set cement for this job. The suction in the blockwork will mean that the render will be dry enough to float in no time at all. I don't think your plasterer knows what he is talking about.
  6.  
    Not very big Mike, 2.2m by 5.4m. I think his problem lies in that he thinks he needs to put it on in 2 coats so he wants the first coat to go off quickly so he can get the second on in the same day. If he can do it in one coat then there isn't a problem. I'm going to tell him to use normal cement and, if he takes his ball home, I have a copy of an email from Lafarge Cement technical department in my bag saying Extra Rapid is not suitable for rendering whole walls... that should shut him up.
  7.  
    Shame you're not in South Wales, that's no more than a mornings work. Did lafarge advise a sand/cement/lime mix?
  8.  
    They just sent me a pdf which had various mixes (most with some lime) on it but dealt with external rendering only.
    • CommentAuthorOliver
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2007
     
    interesting stuff guys.
    I also have a rendering querie which i'd appreciate any opinions on:
    The area in question is what was the outside of a gable wall on a 16th century Guernsey farm house, (the whole house is built of 1m (+/-) solid granite walls! and as they did in those days has a circa. 3degree lean from the base to the eaves. It's two storeys with a loft and L shaped in plan.)
    We've built a large 'extension' off the end of it creating a sort of court yard and bringing what was the gable end inside the new dining room, the FFL of which is also now circa 500m below that of the old house. Therefore i need to tank at least 650 mm up the wall, i intend to use a 10 spike osmosis system with a tanking render on both ground and wall, followed by a flexi mebrane at the junction. The main wall however is to be plummed up and plastered, we can't stud it out as there's no space so were thinking of cleaning up the granite and using a lime mortar to roughly re-point/fill holes then using one thick coat of easy bond, followed by a 3:1 sand and cement render with fibres and water proofing agent @ 10-12 mm with a scratch finish, then a 4:1 mix with some plaz, and finally a scim of gypsum...
    We've done all the rest of the house in lime mortar and I can't help thinking that there's a better method than the one we've come up with to render this wall, especially with the moisture that will inevitably be in the wall from 300 years of rain and not forgetting the fact that the other side of this wall is a huge fireplace which in winter will agian be in use!
    sorry about the essay, any ideas anyone?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2007
     
    Oliver, use lime not cement -- forget the osmosis -- how about exposed lime pointed granite?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2007
     
    Chris, may be he isn't a proper plasterer. It is easy as pie to get two coats on in a day! one in the morning one in the afternoon. Scratch it the next morning and set it. ( do another job in the afternoon)
    • CommentAuthorOliver
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2007
     
    Tony, why forget the osmosis? The new FFL is below the existing slab in the farm house, and although there is 1m of granite between them the old slab sits directly on earth therefore the new extension effectively needs tanking no?

    Re: granite finish, it's a very modern 'arty' house and already has two granite, pointed in lime walls whilst the other two are designed to be 'blank canvases' showing off the old granite.... I'm an architect so it's all a bit airy fairy but effectively, exposed is out.

    Do you think i can simply use a lime mix instead of the cement but effectively use the same build up then?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2007
     
    Why do you think it will be damp? where is the water table level? how can water get through granite?

    I think all you need to do is lime plaster it -- no damp proofing no membranes no problems.

    My reasoning is that the water vapour pressure in the air in the house will be higher than that of the air behind and in the wall in question so a little moisture will pass out of the room into the ground! Not the other way round as long as there is no running water then no problems and if there is running water then you will be fighting an expensive loosing battle trying to stop it.
    • CommentAuthorfuncrusher
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2007
     
    Its almost impossible to advise from a distance, as much depends on water table and ground conditions. I've lived in a couple of very ancient houses with no DPC and not encountered any rising damp - but I know lots of cases to the contrary. Perhaps if the existing walls show no signs of damp, then ground conditions are probably favourable.

    Incidentally, do you know how deep the foundations are? you may find your excavation is below the footings of the old gable wall - both my ancient houses had minimal depth of foundations. In one case, i too excavated a floor to lower it by a few inches and install a DPC :I found I was below foundations.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2007
     
    Yes Fun, you are right to pick me up and hang me out to dry but in my favour are local granite and no mention of damp in the house ( has this to with lime?)

    The idea of 300 years of rain is not relevant as generally under houses the ground is bone dry -- 300 yrs of no rain!

    What is the house built on topsoil? rock? or what -- where is the water table?
    • CommentAuthorOliver
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2007
     
    Thanks guys,
    Interesting to hear about the vapour pressure concept Tony, thanks.
    In answer to your questions: the water table is (i assume) a fair way below the level of the floor, we're at the top of a hill with a stream at the bottom of it, and having dug the footings as well as having dug out an enormous old soak away (4m down) and installed a new cess pit (5.5m's down) and not found running water I guess that means I haven't hit the water table?
    We do have what i think is rising damp in one corner opposite the area in question, but it's where an adjoining barn wall belongs on one side to the neighbours and on one side to us so has to stay as-is, I'm also still not sure that it's not a combination of causes (external doors not installed, leadwork not yet finished above a fair amount of rain recently etc etc...) If it does turn out to be rising damp that's when i'll use the solution originally mentioned and figured i may as well run it round to the gable end conditoin whilst i'm at it...?
    The house is built on very good clay like soil ( i.e. we dug deep trenches for the footings and hardly needed to rake them back from the edge at all)
    Regarding being below footings.....What footings?!! the stones get bigger as you work down the outside beneath the floor slab and then ..... nothing! We're not quite as far down as where they stop but not far off.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2007
     
    You will be OK then on all counts.
    • CommentAuthordreadjembe
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2008
     
    Hi Oliver, I suggest using hydraulic lime, contact Michael Le Noury, he's an expert lime plasterer based in Guernsey. I'm also in Guernsey and can do that sort of thing if it's not already taken care of.
    • CommentAuthorPaul_B
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2008
     
    I've just plastered blockwork (parge coat) myself, it took about three days but I was on my own and never done this before; plus the blockwork and cement joints were all over the place. I believe any base coat can fairly be easily be done by a DIYer its the final skim coat that is the tricky bit to get that polished finished. I used 2:1 NHL 3.5 to plastering sand. I've seen a few sites describe how to first batten the blockwork with wood to the thickness of the base plaster and the batten width to the size of a straight edge (spirit level). You then have a perfect edge to plaster to at the thickness that you want. Take the battens off when dry, or possibly still damp, then fill the whole as either side is now level.

    If you do go for it yourself you'll be learning a new skill, can choose the mix you want and have a great sense of achievement. Only word of advice is it makes a hell of a mess and wear long-sleeves and latex gloves. I didn't wear a long-sleeve on the first day and now have some lime plaster burns that are slowly healing
Add your comments

    Username Password
  • Format comments as
 
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press