Green Building Forum - One advantage of renewable energy

Green Building Forum - One advantage of renewable energy Thu, 11 Jun 2026 22:47:18 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 One advantage of renewable energy https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=86986#Comment_86986 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=86986#Comment_86986 Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:00:54 +0100 Paul in Montreal
One local, to me, example, is that HydroQuebec just announced electricity rates would be frozen until 2012 at the earliest. This follows a period a few years ago where rates were also frozen for five years.

One could argue the merits or otherwise of this approach on stimulating demand reduction, but it's comforting to know that cost of production is not really a factor once the infrastructure is in place. I have read that some of the dams have production costs of around $0.01 per kWh.

Paul in Montreal.]]> One advantage of renewable energy https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=86988#Comment_86988 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=86988#Comment_86988 Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:08:06 +0100 SteamyTea
Your spot on there, shame that the banks and governments don't realise it. Tends to be more true for hydro as that has the longest history and the most reliable. It can go wrong though as a few damns have failed and then the costs are huge, but that generally happens in developing countries with other more pressing problems that shoudl be dealt with first.]]> One advantage of renewable energy https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=86990#Comment_86990 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=86990#Comment_86990 Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:11:20 +0100 fostertom
Same applies to all fuels, right down to cottage-industry log fuel. Prices of all are likely to rise, closely following the oil/gas/electricity price 'ceiling' - gd news for anyone owning woodland. The non-scarce ones need only maintain a slight price advantage, to steal share from the majors - there's no reason why anyone shd peg their prices down to actual production cost.

There will be no cheap fuels in the future - except solar heat that's collected and stored so lo-grade that it can't be transported or re-sold but only used v close to the point of collection, in which case it can hardly be classed as a fuel (which implies a price as a commodity, hence portability).]]> One advantage of renewable energy https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=86999#Comment_86999 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=86999#Comment_86999 Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:46:33 +0100 Paul in Montreal Posted By: fostertomIt's v nice of them to volunteer to freeze/peg prices to actual production cost, but with oil/gas/electricity set to climb due to scarcity etc, how long can a growing price differential last? If substantial, then supply from HydroQuebec wd have to be rationed by decree rather than price, because everyone wd want it.

The interesting thing in the Quebec situation is that demand can be reduced quite easily as 70% of people heat their homes with straight resistance heating. If they switch to heatpumps (and there are programs designed to encourage this), then demand could be reduced by around 30% or more. Since there's no real other source of demand growth (population is relatively stable and increase in the use of gadgets just offsets heating load) then there's a good chance the reduction in demand through switching to heatpumps will free-up large amounts of power that can be exported to New England, where coal generation dominates. This is the actual policy goal - to use hydroelectricity as a carbon-free clean energy supply that brings in lots of money since the selling price to the US customers is at least 2X what is charged to domestic users, sometimes as high as 3X (but still cheaper than their local costs).

Paul in Montreal.]]> One advantage of renewable energy https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87015#Comment_87015 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87015#Comment_87015 Sat, 14 Aug 2010 00:05:45 +0100 SteamyTea Paul, would industry not want to buy up the supply of is Quebec not into 'heavy' industries. not a part of Canada I know much about.]]> One advantage of renewable energy https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87018#Comment_87018 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87018#Comment_87018 Sat, 14 Aug 2010 00:43:35 +0100 Paul in Montreal
Paul in Montreal.]]> One advantage of renewable energy https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87021#Comment_87021 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87021#Comment_87021 Sat, 14 Aug 2010 08:51:06 +0100 SteamyTea Posted By: Paul in MontrealMakes a lot of sense!

On the face of it it does but is that not similar to the UK cutting emission by 'exporting' our heavy industry to the East, it just shifts the problem to a different accounting centre rather than reduce anything. I really do feel the Enron's now. :devil:

]]> One advantage of renewable energy https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87025#Comment_87025 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87025#Comment_87025 Sat, 14 Aug 2010 09:35:15 +0100 bot de paille If supplies of fossil fuels drop then demand for renewable generated energy will increase, along with the price.

On a planet with 6 billion people increasing their demand for energy from limited energy supplies, including renewables the game of energy security will continue. Countries will still be paying vast amounts of money fighting wars to keep control of the hydro dams, mega PV installations in the desert etc etc. The costs of these externalities will always be there until something like nuclear fusion turns up.

While the production costs might be stable for renewables, the additional external costs or externalitites might not change.

Either that or we just use coal, of which theere is plenty of on the planet for everyone.]]> One advantage of renewable energy https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87040#Comment_87040 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87040#Comment_87040 Sat, 14 Aug 2010 12:48:07 +0100 Gavin_A
The alternative is to export that electricity instead, but that involves significant transmission losses using exiting gHVAC grids, and huge construction costs plus still 10% or so transmission losses is a HVDC long distance cable were installed.]]> One advantage of renewable energy https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87052#Comment_87052 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87052#Comment_87052 Sat, 14 Aug 2010 16:03:10 +0100 SteamyTea
It is the downfall of carbon trading, the more low or zero carbon electricity generated the more carbon intensive generation can be permitted, it is the problem of an expanding market place. It is why Cap and Trade, Individual Carbon Credits, ROCs, FITs, LLCs, CRC et al are fundamentally flawed when they are a minority play, it is only when generation from coal, oil, gas and biomass becomes the minority player in the marketplace AND the total generation from those sources are in genuine decline do the the incentives for low carbon generation start to pay off. About the same time that the subsidies are withdrawn. Increasing the end users prices is the way around all the current subsidies, this is about to happen with the CRC's coming in, don't be surprised is the price of a pint goes up to pay for it, the costs have to be passed on somewhere (there is an NI rebate but that is really for large industries that are people intensive).]]> One advantage of renewable energy https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87103#Comment_87103 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87103#Comment_87103 Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:36:15 +0100 Gavin_A
this isn't enron style false accounting, and it's not carbon trading either.]]> One advantage of renewable energy https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87107#Comment_87107 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87107#Comment_87107 Sun, 15 Aug 2010 22:25:22 +0100 SteamyTea I will be honest and do not understand enough of the relationship between Quebec and the USA and how they trade power, but seems to be that all will happen is that a US company will relocate to Canada and the 'dirty' US power will just be used somewhere else, possible 'dumped' on the market with no reduction in capacity at all. Kind of robbing Peter to pay Paul (not PinM, I am sure he is above board :bigsmile:

). I agree that the Enron situation was a bit different, but they found a loop hole and like any free enterprise business will exploit it, it is why the market place is the way it is, it directs capital to the most profitable place on the day.

Slightly different note, our new government looks like it will renege on manifesto pledges already. Why do we put up with it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/aug/15/coal-fired-power-stations-coalition]]> One advantage of renewable energy https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87313#Comment_87313 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87313#Comment_87313 Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:24:05 +0100 Paul in Montreal Posted By: SteamyTeaI will be honest and do not understand enough of the relationship between Quebec and the USA and how they trade power, but seems to be that all will happen is that a US company will relocate to Canada and the 'dirty' US power will just be used somewhere else, possible 'dumped' on the market with no reduction in capacity at all.

Problem in the New England states of the US is that they are facing capacity problems but cannot build/expand their generating plants. Some utilities were even giving away CFLs some time ago to reduce demand such that the impossible-to-build new plants would be required. Importation is one solution for them and Quebec is actively looking to expand this market. As old coal-fired plants are taken out of service, they can replace that capacity with cheaper imported hydro electricity and get CO2 emissions reductions at the same time too. There are fewer and fewer heavy manufacturing companies anyway that would need electric power - the main ones being aluminium smelting and those plants are always located on their own hydro schemes anyway (or have special rates from HydroQuebec).

Posted By: Gavin_AI don't see how reducing consumption in an area where virtually all of the electricity is from renewable resources, then encouraging electricty intensive industry (with low transport elements) such as data centres to move there from high carbon electricty areas in order to use the freed up low carbon electricty capacity is anything like enron.

Exactly - data can be moved with lower losses than power as optical fibres are very "efficient" compared to power lines. Another advantage of moving datacentres to a cold climate is that the waste heat can actually be used, rather than, well, wasted. I can imagine a datacentre would fit nicely with a swimming pool complex or provide heat to offices or apartment buildings.

Paul in Montreal.]]> One advantage of renewable energy https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87315#Comment_87315 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6151&Focus=87315#Comment_87315 Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:35:08 +0100 DamonHD
Rgds

Damon]]>