Green Building Forum - Biomass - a burning issue Fri, 05 Jun 2026 14:22:54 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=157764#Comment_157764 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=157764#Comment_157764 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:40:44 +0100 renewablejohn
If your concerned about PM then you should try filtering woodgas to such an extent that it can be used in internal combustion engines without damaging the engine.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=157776#Comment_157776 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=157776#Comment_157776 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 13:24:04 +0100 Brianwilson Your suggestions of filter applications although effective incur substantial cost which unfortunately means they are avoided in the UK where the combustion industry appear to exploit loose regulation e.g. current biomass plant proposal detailing use of multi- cyclone filter system despite knowledge that it is ineffective in removal of sub PM 10 particles. The irony is there are reports that we are exporting WESP systems for effective PM abatement on biomass combustion plants in other Countries.
A few years ago I noted reports of Swiss success in use of ceramic filters and suggested use in the UK to the Environment Agency but the response was ceramic filters were considered unsuitable due to failure caused by thermal shock. Based on experience with ceramics in heating considered it rubbish and now note ceramic filters are being retrospectively fitted to Scottish biomass installations at schools and public premises.
Other Countries are taking positive action in order to reduce nasties such as PM, NOX and SO2 pollution and protect life , we appear to fixate on carbon and ignore the deliberate degradation of our air quality. This is despite our knowledge of external cost implications resulting from the damage.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161486#Comment_161486 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161486#Comment_161486 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:13:45 +0000 jamesingram https://www.facebook.com/groups/theaecb/
"Interesting “Material World” on Radio 4. A report this week issued by Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth and the RSPB suggests that crucial mistakes in our carbon accounting procedures make burning biomass in the form of wood appear a better idea than it really is. In fact, they go so far as to suggest we'd be better off sticking with coal."
Listen again on
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01ntjpz]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161487#Comment_161487 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161487#Comment_161487 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:14:53 +0000 jamesingram ]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161488#Comment_161488 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161488#Comment_161488 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:38:32 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: jamesingramcrucial mistakes in our carbon accounting procedures make burning biomass in the form of wood appear a better idea than it really isReally, hard to believe after 1034 comments on here. Wish I had thought of it :wink:]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161520#Comment_161520 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161520#Comment_161520 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 19:14:38 +0000 Brianwilson http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20303668
Includes-
“Drax will get 10% of its fuel from British sources like these and there's a high-walled maze at the power station of blocks of chopped miscanthus next to high mounds of shredded willow.
But since energy crops first stirred agricultural excitement there's been controversy over the impact of using land to grow crops to burn. Drax say miscanthus can still be useful for farmers wanting to stabilise sandy soils.
But it is possible that in future this may be uneconomic, and that growing coppiced wood for burning will be mainly concentrated on the high-value market for wood-burning stoves in the homes of the rich.
In the meantime, the imports of wood from round the world are likely to continue”
90% import requirement, price of indigenous biomass such as miscanthus doubled, confirmed degradation of air quality compared with fossil fuel , low efficiency biomass powerplants in UK with high pollution burden per unit of useful power out. Where is the due diligence and joined up thinking?
“high- value market for wood-burning stoves in the homes of the rich” ! So what should be the real future for wood burning in the UK and the consequences?
Rgds Brian Wilson]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161523#Comment_161523 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161523#Comment_161523 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 19:46:55 +0000 jamesingram Posted By: Brianwilson So what should be the real future for wood burning in the UK and the consequences? Rgds Brian Wilson
How about.
Burning of managed locally sourced new wood, not required for other uses.
Burning of wood from individuals own managed production ( trimming of tree on land/property ).
Burning of any waste wood not tarnished by other polutants ( paint, glue etc.)

I'd imagine the consequences, in terms of polution, of the above, relative to other negative influances on the environment, would be very small.

cheers Jim]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161535#Comment_161535 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161535#Comment_161535 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 21:31:23 +0000 tony
In therms of per unit it is worse than average. and average is already way too bad.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161539#Comment_161539 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161539#Comment_161539 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 21:42:28 +0000 mike7 Posted By: jamesingramThought this would be of interest . From the AECB web site................ 6 more posts and it'll hit a 1000 , do i get a price:bigsmile:" alt=":bigsmile:" src="https:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/bigsmile.gif" >

Well, if Brian is paying....

I think the future will include domestic-size woodburners far more sophisticated than the crude boxes they mostly are at present. It'll cost, but then what won't?]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161550#Comment_161550 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161550#Comment_161550 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 22:45:17 +0000 Timber
Do I win the prize?

BTW, nothing helpful to add to the debate, other than I have been looking at smoking chimneys differently in the last few weeks now the weather has turned. Fine for the minority, not for the majority. I was in London today, and I was thinking (while I was driving around) that if all the chimneys on the houses were producing emissions from open fires or wood stoves, we would be in serious trouble!]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161554#Comment_161554 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161554#Comment_161554 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 22:59:32 +0000 SteamyTea How is your stove design doing, has it smoked out my parents yet, not heard from them is a week or two :bigsmile:]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161598#Comment_161598 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161598#Comment_161598 Sat, 17 Nov 2012 22:19:40 +0000 renewablejohn

I think the future will include domestic-size woodburners far more sophisticated than the crude boxes they mostly are at present. It'll cost, but then what won't?

Technology is already on its way. Efficiencies in excess of 5x chemical energy of wood are already achievable and does not rely on burning wood.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161606#Comment_161606 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161606#Comment_161606 Sat, 17 Nov 2012 23:55:25 +0000 tony Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161607#Comment_161607 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161607#Comment_161607 Sun, 18 Nov 2012 00:19:33 +0000 renewablejohn Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161610#Comment_161610 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161610#Comment_161610 Sun, 18 Nov 2012 02:31:26 +0000 mike7 Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161612#Comment_161612 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161612#Comment_161612 Sun, 18 Nov 2012 05:48:41 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: renewablejohnTechnology is already on its way. Efficiencies in excess of 5x chemical energy of wood are already achievable and does not rely on burning wood.Depending on the way it is measured it could be PV as that has a yield of about that per metre squared :wink:]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161624#Comment_161624 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161624#Comment_161624 Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:39:25 +0000 renewablejohn Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161625#Comment_161625 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161625#Comment_161625 Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:41:08 +0000 SteamyTea Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161626#Comment_161626 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161626#Comment_161626 Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:49:14 +0000 billt Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161627#Comment_161627 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161627#Comment_161627 Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:51:27 +0000 SteamyTea ]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161666#Comment_161666 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161666#Comment_161666 Sun, 18 Nov 2012 18:00:38 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: SteamyTeaWhat is the 'brake block' rubbing against?

Either steel drum or disc depending on design.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161668#Comment_161668 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161668#Comment_161668 Sun, 18 Nov 2012 18:02:16 +0000 Timber Posted By: SteamyTeaTimber
How is your stove design doing, has it smoked out my parents yet, not heard from them is a week or twohttps:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/bigsmile.gif" alt=":bigsmile:" title=":bigsmile:" >

Nah, it is going well. Ironically though given my comments about chimneys and smoke etc.

In my defense, it is much better than an open fire that many people run, and once running it doesn't emit any visible smoke from the chimney, which I am happy about.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161670#Comment_161670 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161670#Comment_161670 Sun, 18 Nov 2012 18:08:04 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: billtAnd where's the energy come from to move whatever is being braked?

Depends if you have any "free" energy to use wind turbine, water wheel, solar electric motor. If not then use some of the steam generated to drive the drum or disc.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161674#Comment_161674 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161674#Comment_161674 Sun, 18 Nov 2012 18:48:31 +0000 tony
Free energy is an interesting concept though]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161675#Comment_161675 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161675#Comment_161675 Sun, 18 Nov 2012 19:12:46 +0000 mike7 Posted By: renewablejohn
Posted By: billtAnd where's the energy come from to move whatever is being braked?


Depends if you have any "free" energy to use wind turbine, water wheel, solar electric motor. If not then use some of the steam generated to drive the drum or disc.

To quote another John:- "You cannot be serious!"]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161696#Comment_161696 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161696#Comment_161696 Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:06:25 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: tonyBasic physical law is that you cant extract more energy from a system that went into it (except fission and fusion and snake oil)

Free energy is an interesting concept though

Where not talking overunity. The wood is being consumed as a fuel only the heat output is greater than its chemical composition. No different analogy to a heat pump having a COP in excess of 1 or is that snake oil as well.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161698#Comment_161698 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161698#Comment_161698 Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:12:19 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: mike7
Posted By: renewablejohn
Posted By: billtAnd where's the energy come from to move whatever is being braked?


Depends if you have any "free" energy to use wind turbine, water wheel, solar electric motor. If not then use some of the steam generated to drive the drum or disc.


To quote another John:- "You cannot be serious!"

What is your problem wood has been used to raise steam to drive steam engines for centuries. All were talking about is a more efficient flash boiler using friction to raise the heat instead of fire.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161710#Comment_161710 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161710#Comment_161710 Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:12:16 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: renewablejohnNo different analogy to a heat pump having a COP in excess of 1 or is that snake oil as well.That is not how a heat pump works.

So you have a wheel/disk/shaft and a friction surface (your wooden block), as you spin the wheel, the blocks get hot. You then draw the heat away (probably though pipes and a fluid) and do something with that energy.
Now that wheel takes energy to turn it, takes even more with it has a brake on it. So you get the energy for 'free', say a turbine of some sort (though you could push a truck down a hill, but would have to push it up again), the formula for calculating the energy in the wind/water is well know and can give you the input energy. The change in energy caused by the rise in temperature of the brake blocks can be measures and the energy calculated.
Bet it is not more than than energy input. In fact I know it will not be.
Now what you are actually talking about here is energy harvesting from low entropy sources. Not the same as over unity though.
The thing to remember is that you have to calculate all the inputs but only one output (the useful bit) to calculate the efficiency.
So you have been measuring the wrong thing.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161716#Comment_161716 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161716#Comment_161716 Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:50:11 +0000 jamesingram "Burning whole trees in power stations can be dirtier than coal, concludes a new report by the RSPB, Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace."
http://www.rspb.org.uk/news/328523-electricity-from-trees-dirtier-than-coal]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161724#Comment_161724 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161724#Comment_161724 Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:04:48 +0000 renewablejohn
I suggest you look up friction on Wicki then you might have a better understanding

What you fail to grasp is the friction wood blocks are actually a fuel source just the same as petrol in a combustion engine.]]>