Green Building Forum - Biomass - a burning issue Fri, 05 Jun 2026 14:22:37 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161734#Comment_161734 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161734#Comment_161734 Mon, 19 Nov 2012 14:39:19 +0000 SteamyTea ]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161740#Comment_161740 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161740#Comment_161740 Mon, 19 Nov 2012 14:53:00 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: SteamyTeaI don't feel I have to defend myself herehttps:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/happy/rolling.gif" alt=":rolling:" title=":rolling:" >

Neither do I.

Surely any technology that allows you to heat your home using a log instead of a box of logs must be worthwhile especially when you dont have the pollution problems associated with combustion.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161812#Comment_161812 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161812#Comment_161812 Tue, 20 Nov 2012 13:25:33 +0000 djh
I've no idea whether or how well it works.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161814#Comment_161814 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161814#Comment_161814 Tue, 20 Nov 2012 13:47:44 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: djhTo see what John is talking about, google Lloyd Tanner Friction Boiler

I've no idea whether or how well it works.

It works even better with thermal oil and a steam evaporator]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161824#Comment_161824 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161824#Comment_161824 Tue, 20 Nov 2012 16:35:14 +0000 billt
"Lloyed Tanner, on the other hand, has built a device in his garage that can boil water and create steam pressure using the heat of FRICTION... you know, the same thing that lights matches, and overheats our automobile brakes. His prototype presses pieces of oak 4 by 4s onto a metal wheel being spun by an electric motor. The wheel soon becomes a spinning "hot plate" that can heat water in a boiler to create steam pressure that can run a generator to supply electricity to run not only the motor turning the wheel, but everything in his house as well."]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161830#Comment_161830 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161830#Comment_161830 Tue, 20 Nov 2012 17:37:14 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: billtSounds like another lunatic perpetual motion machine.

"Lloyed Tanner, on the other hand, has built a device in his garage that can boil water and create steam pressure using the heat of FRICTION... you know, the same thing that lights matches, and overheats our automobile brakes. His prototype presses pieces of oak 4 by 4s onto a metal wheel being spun by an electric motor. The wheel soon becomes a spinning "hot plate" that can heat water in a boiler to create steam pressure that can run a generator to supply electricity to run not only the motor turning the wheel, but everything in his house as well."

Certainly not perpetual motion as your using the chemical energy within the wood. Similar technology to that found in a Clem engine using thermal oil and steam.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161832#Comment_161832 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161832#Comment_161832 Tue, 20 Nov 2012 17:55:30 +0000 billt
Sorry, but one website with no detailed explanation, incredible claims and a Heath Robinson drawing looks like the work of yet another nutcase. If you can point to a working, independently verified version I might change my view, but I'm not going to hold my breath.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161834#Comment_161834 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161834#Comment_161834 Tue, 20 Nov 2012 18:04:52 +0000 jamesingram ]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161835#Comment_161835 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161835#Comment_161835 Tue, 20 Nov 2012 18:17:49 +0000 renewablejohn Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161836#Comment_161836 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161836#Comment_161836 Tue, 20 Nov 2012 18:38:35 +0000 tony Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161902#Comment_161902 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161902#Comment_161902 Wed, 21 Nov 2012 12:41:09 +0000 renewablejohn Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161911#Comment_161911 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161911#Comment_161911 Wed, 21 Nov 2012 13:41:43 +0000 billt
This device claims to be able to both run itself and generate excess energy without an external energy source, and hence violates well understood physical laws.

From our very limited, short term, point of view, we won't run out of solar energy. The sun will still die though and it isn't a perpetual motion machine.

Posted By: renewablejohnThere is no claim of getting more energy out then you put in.


As I quoted above - "The wheel soon becomes a spinning "hot plate" that can heat water in a boiler to create steam pressure that can run a generator to supply electricity to run not only the motor turning the wheel, but everything in his house as well." Which is claiming precisely that energy is generated with no energy input.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161915#Comment_161915 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161915#Comment_161915 Wed, 21 Nov 2012 13:54:12 +0000 djh Posted By: billtThis device claims to be able to both run itself and generate excess energy without an external energy source, and hence violates well understood physical laws.
The device consumes the wood. Until I see an analysis that either claims the chemical energy of the wood forms the energy source, or a counter-analysis that proves it cannot, I'll keep my mind open. I haven't yet seen any proof that it violates physical laws. Nor any that it does perform net useful work.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161935#Comment_161935 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161935#Comment_161935 Wed, 21 Nov 2012 16:43:39 +0000 renewablejohn Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161951#Comment_161951 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161951#Comment_161951 Wed, 21 Nov 2012 18:25:13 +0000 billt Posted By: djhThe device consumes the wood. Until I see an analysis that either claims the chemical energy of the wood forms the energy source, or a counter-analysis that proves it cannot, I'll keep my mind open. I haven't yet seen any proof that it violates physical laws. Nor any that it does perform net useful work.

I think that in this instance Occam's razor is quite useful!

Posted By: renewablejohnIf you want to look at reasons why it should work I suggest looking at Steam electricity and the work carried out by Faraday in respect of Friction


Would you care to provide a more explicit reference for Faraday's work on Friction? I've just spent some time googling and the only reference that I can find is a postulation that ice is covered by a thin film of liquid. Almost all of his work seems to have been related to chemistry and electromagnetism.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161973#Comment_161973 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161973#Comment_161973 Wed, 21 Nov 2012 22:09:56 +0000 renewablejohn
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/P6.pdf

First came across it in respect of Health and Safety in cleaning out oil storage tanks with powered steam cleaners.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161974#Comment_161974 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161974#Comment_161974 Wed, 21 Nov 2012 22:27:58 +0000 renewablejohn
http://volcaniclightning.tripod.com/steam.htm]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161976#Comment_161976 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161976#Comment_161976 Wed, 21 Nov 2012 23:15:17 +0000 Gavin_A
Farraday "3.The electricity is due entirely to the friction of particles of water which the steam carries forward against the surrounding solid matter of the passage (He devised various jets - has had Armstrong - for the water to impinge upon)."

What's the relevance to the situation you're describing?]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161981#Comment_161981 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161981#Comment_161981 Thu, 22 Nov 2012 05:10:37 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: Gavin_Athey both seem to relate to an electric charge being produced directly by friction within steam itselfThat would be static electricity then.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161993#Comment_161993 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=161993#Comment_161993 Thu, 22 Nov 2012 09:00:48 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: Gavin_Athey both seem to relate to an electric charge being produced directly by friction within steam itself, which doesn't seem to have any relevance at all to the previous statements you made.

Farraday "3.The electricity is due entirely to the friction of particles of water which the steam carries forward against the surrounding solid matter of the passage (He devised various jets - has had Armstrong - for the water to impinge upon)."

What's the relevance to the situation you're describing?

Gavin

Faraday does mention turpentine and oils as well as friction all of which are part of the system described earlier.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162003#Comment_162003 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162003#Comment_162003 Thu, 22 Nov 2012 10:41:32 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: djhTo see what John is talking about, google Lloyd Tanner Friction Boiler

I've no idea whether or how well it works.

Gone quite a bit beyond this in respect of MHD but the above is ok for first principles]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162005#Comment_162005 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162005#Comment_162005 Thu, 22 Nov 2012 10:59:18 +0000 Seret
Are there any papers published on it, and/or is anyone developing it commercially?

There seem to be a few US patents kicking about from the 80's for friction boilers, but not biomass ones.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162008#Comment_162008 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162008#Comment_162008 Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:23:41 +0000 renewablejohn
The serious research in MHD is for coal fired power with China and Japan leading the way. The technology is quite well understood and is used as a top slice for combustion, the output from which fires normal steam combustion. A typical coal plant with MHD would have electrical efficiency upto 60% compared to normal 40%, With current gas prices MHD research is on the back burner in UK and US as a gas plant can also achieve 60% without the cost or technical difficulties.

I will let the man carry on tinkering in his garage. However

If you look at MHD systems requiring a stream of charged particles to work and then analyse the work of Faraday and others in relation to charged steam droplets I cannot see any reason why biomass cannot be used in the first stage of a MHD system. A MHD system converts kinetic energy whether that kinetic energy is due to chemical energy or friction is irrelevant.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162013#Comment_162013 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162013#Comment_162013 Thu, 22 Nov 2012 13:16:16 +0000 Seret
I was asking if the friction boiler itself was the subject of serious development, which from your answer I'm assuming it isn't?]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162018#Comment_162018 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162018#Comment_162018 Thu, 22 Nov 2012 13:44:16 +0000 renewablejohn
The friction between the wood and metal is already producing a stream of charged steam particles, using that stream will increase the overall efficiency of the system. As regards the friction boiler it is just part of a normal thermal oil loop producing steam on demand.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162020#Comment_162020 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162020#Comment_162020 Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:04:39 +0000 SteamyTea ]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162023#Comment_162023 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162023#Comment_162023 Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:42:00 +0000 Seret Posted By: renewablejohnusing that stream will increase the overall efficiency of the system.

How so, and by how much? Who's doing this research?

What is this "stream of charged particles" required for anyway? As far as I can tell, for an MHD generator you pass a charged fluid through a magentic field and bob's your uncle. Are you suggesting that the steam from your friction generator would be the actual working fluid of the MHD? Why would that be better than just using the Hall effect powered by the electricity generated in the MHD itself?]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162026#Comment_162026 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162026#Comment_162026 Thu, 22 Nov 2012 16:21:26 +0000 renewablejohn
If you look at that Lloyd Tanner video you basically have two 4x4 pieces of oak in point contact with a spinning drum. You have two sources of steam in his system. First on top of the hotplate is a flash boiler producing conventional steam. Second the contact point between wet oak and the spinning drum which will have a pyrolysis point. This Is the part I am concerned with producing a charged ring which can be used for MHD.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162045#Comment_162045 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162045#Comment_162045 Thu, 22 Nov 2012 23:09:14 +0000 Seret
I like novel ideas, but my BS meter is generally on a bit of a hair trigger on the internet, and your vagueness and the fact that you haven't provided any sources isn't helping much.

I get that this guy has a machine that turns electricity and wood into steam, I just don't see what's so special about that, and you've not shown us any actual link between it and MHD generators.]]> Biomass - a burning issue https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162053#Comment_162053 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6241&Focus=162053#Comment_162053 Fri, 23 Nov 2012 00:48:43 +0000 Gavin_A