Green Building Forum - Proffesional or DIY?

Proffesional or DIY?

tony — Sat, 02 Oct 2010 12:41:45 +0100

The country seem to heading down the route of believing that DIY is bad and professional is good.

In many instances there is a very big incentive for a DIY job to be done well, the person will be living with it for a long time

A professional is simply someone who is paid to do something and this is not necessarily a measure of quality though it generally is, but not always.

For solar pv I would agree with professional testing of all grid linked systems but NOT by the company or person that installed it. This is both reasonable and sensible yet not what is happening.

Were this to be accepted then DIY installations become acceptable and I wish that this could happen --- Lord Young where are you?

Proffesional or DIY?

fostertom — Sat, 02 Oct 2010 13:06:48 +0100

What, this Lord Young? http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2010/06/david-cameron-appoints-lord-young-to-reintroduce-common-sense-into-the-operation-of-health-and-safet.html

Proffesional or DIY?

SteamyTea — Sat, 02 Oct 2010 16:03:13 +0100

I think one of the issues that we tend to judge by our own standards and can accept limitations that we impose on anything we do for ourselves.
An example of this maybe that by not fitting a timer to a heating circuit (say an immersion heater) we have to remember to turn it off manually. Say we then sell the house and the new owner calls up saying that the electricity bill is very high, nothing like you claimed when you sold it. Now I appreciate that one could argue that the new owners should be of a high enough educational standard to work this out, but they may be specialists in another field.

One area where professional standards has made a positive contribution to safety is in the automotive field. Imagine if 10% of car tyres where home made.

I think the real issue is getting DIY work checked/tested/verified/certificated. This should be possible for an amateur to do at a reasonable cost without playing a cat and mouse game with the enforcement agencies.
A few years ago an architect (no disrespect to him) was telling me that his practice had to employ a structural engineer so that they could submit calculations to I assume Building Control. I asked why he, as an architect, could not do the calculations himself as they are pretty strait forward. Answer came back that they were not easy as things like wind loading had to be taken into account. I pointed out that the stresses on a building were pretty low in engineering terms and cited the example of automobiles that have to be able to travel at 70 MPH, while cornering, possibly de-accelerating and in differing road conditions (surface, grip, camber etc). He could not see the relevance until I pointed out that 16 year olds that study a National Diploma work this out on the BTEC Automotive Engineering course.
Seems to me that the building industry has to up-skill and because of this there has been negative impacts on amateurs. Not arguing if this is right or wrong or if an 'Englishman's home is his castle', purely an observation, all be it a limited one.

Tom's observation about Part L and not including heating is a case in point. There are many interpretations of this legislation, which I think we all tend to agree is a good move, but without BC understanding the exceptions, novel interpretations cannot be acted on. But I am sure of one was to pay a team of 'professionals' then any heating system could be passed. This leads to the issue of anecdotal and empirical evidence, frequently they match up, but even professionals sometimes have trouble separating the two. The DIYer, sadly, has little hope of convincing those in authority.

Proffesional or DIY?

squowse — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 01:43:38 +0100

architects are not generally trained in depth in structural engineering to be fair (and there are always odd things "common sense" would not come up with that could be massive flaws) and they would certainly not be covered by their professional indemnity insurance for it, same as me, and I have a degree in structural engineering. Not to say a fully insured structural eng would be any better but they should be experienced, and will certainly over design to avoid any problems. plus you or your lender will be insured in the case of disaster and that is the long and short of it.

as regards the OP i do agree that independent checking and certification is the way to go in all spheres.
eg we don't let auto mechanics certify their own work... MOT test.

Proffesional or DIY?

sinnerboy — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 02:09:49 +0100

Posted By: tonyA professional is simply someone who is paid to do something and this is not necessarily a measure of quality though it generally is, but not always.?

A professional in the context of building design , is someone educated and trained to perform their duties and is expected to be competent . And must carry PI insurance should they fail in their duties .

Posted By: tonyIn many instances there is a very big incentive for a DIY job to be done well, the person will be living with it for a long time

Unless in a false economy drive someone has a punt and intends to sell on quickly . Care to invest in such a
property ? In the recently departed good old days money sloshed around all too easily but it won't for a long time
to come .

For good reasons certification backed by PI cover I predict will be sought in all cases .

In what other context would you advocate a DIY approach Tony ? Medicine ? Car maintenance ?

You may disdain construction professionals Tony . But not the PI cover they carry I suppose if it came down to it .

Proffesional or DIY?

tony — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 09:40:00 +0100

I maintained my own car for 17 out of the 29 years that I owned it apart from MOT testing and welding repairs.

DIY for almost all construction industry jobs is possible including some of the white collar ones but some with testing and checking

Are you suggestion bricklayers need PI insurance and MOT tests?

Proffesional or DIY?

SteamyTea — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 09:50:36 +0100

Posted By: tonyAre you suggestion bricklayers need PI insurance and MOT tests?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/16/newsid_2514000/2514277.stm
Having seen a program about this where a worker on it was laughing that they got a bonus for finishing quicker, so they put less bolts in, I think that there really should be a minimum professional standard and PL insurance for each worker on site.
Not quite the same as a DIYer but some things have to be constructed to a minimum standard surely.

Proffesional or DIY?

Joiner — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:04:24 +0100

A competent diy-er doing the work to a professional standard will always be better than a professional doing the work to a diy standard. The problem is telling them apart when the render is on and the walls all plastered. That's why the checks and balances are there prior to and during the construction/installation, and I think it's the point that Tony was making in his OP.

Trouble is, Tony, that PI is there not just to protect the professional from the legal consequences of his lack of professionalism, it's there as a barrier to entry to those who need protecting from themselves! Anyone who spends time on construction forums will know that there's a lot of that about.

Proffesional or DIY?

sinnerboy — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 11:51:01 +0100

Posted By: tonyI maintained my own car for 17 out of the 29 years that I owned it apart from MOT testing and welding repairs.

Why leave out the welding Tony ?

Posted By: tonyDIY for almost all construction industry jobs is possible including some of the white collar ones but some with testing and checking

Many things are possible without being advisable . Again - would you purchase a house procured as you describe ?

Posted By: tonyAre you suggestion bricklayers need PI insurance ?

I am saying that because they don't that one needs certification form those who do . Professionals .

Proffesional or DIY?

sinnerboy — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 11:59:43 +0100

Posted By: JoinerA competent diy-er doing the work to a professional standard will

not have PI cover

Posted By: Joiner a professional doing the work to a diy standard.

will .

Except that you can be confident that a professional with a few years under his belt and holding PI cover is likely not to perform to DIY standards . He could not maintain PI cover working to such standards .

Proffesional or DIY?

Joiner — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:47:31 +0100

Re-read my last post sinnerboy. Very carefully.

As for a professional not maintaining PI cover if producing work to diy standards - I've worked with/for and against quite a few who have managed to do just that!

One of the features of achieving professional qualifications is that of membership of a respective professional body, the subscription to which usually affords legal advice, support and representation when the professional body closes ranks around the errant member. Occasionally an errant member will be ejected from that professional body, but it is an exceptional event, and not just because unprofessional behaviour is rare. It's more often the case that said errant member can expect little more than a slap on the wrist.

Sorry about the rant, but nothing gets me going more than the claim that anyone claiming to be "a professional" is as infallible as they claim to be, regardless of how much paper they can wave in your face. I guess I'm lucky to have had a 51 year working life in trades that reveal a charlatan in very short order, where you step up to the mark and stay there on the evidence of what you can DO, not claim to be able to do. In other words, judge a man by his deeds, whether professional or diy. Personally, I prefer a bullshit-free world.

Proffesional or DIY?

skyewright — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 14:56:10 +0100

Posted By: squowsearchitects are not generally trained in depth in structural engineering to be fair

I recall being told long ago (by an artcitect giving a lecture in a university Civ. Eng. department) something that went along the lines of "Architects design spaces, engineers design structures to support those spaces".

Proffesional or DIY?

James Norton — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 16:59:56 +0100

I think Tony's standard of DIY is not typical... ...to say the least

(meant as a compliment)

J

Proffesional or DIY?

bot de paille — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 17:15:00 +0100

Posted By: SteamyTeaA few years ago an architect (no disrespect to him) was telling me that his practice had to employ a structural engineer so that they could submit calculations to I assume Building Control. I asked why he, as an architect, could not do the calculations himself as they are pretty strait forward. Answer came back that they were not easy as things like wind loading had to be taken into account. I pointed out that the stresses on a building were pretty low in engineering terms and cited the example of automobiles that have to be able to travel at 70 MPH, while cornering, possibly de-accelerating and in differing road conditions (surface, grip, camber etc). He could not see the relevance until I pointed out that 16 year olds that study a National Diploma work this out on the BTEC Automotive Engineering course.
Seems to me that the building industry has to up-skill and because of this there has been negative impacts on amateurs. Not arguing if this is right or wrong or if an 'Englishman's home is his castle', purely an observation, all be it a limited one.

When you work as an architect there are alot of things to be getting on with already! When your up to your ears already trying to cover all the bases to make sure the building comes out correctly, the thought of being able to bring in a specialist third party who will cover that (quite important) base for you is a relief, assuming they are competant. There are only so many hours in the day and after all the paper work, phone calls, chasing up contractors, site visits etc etc its nice to be able to make time to actually design buildings! :)

Proffesional or DIY?

sinnerboy — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 19:03:52 +0100

Posted By: Joiner I prefer a bullshit-free world.

Charming . At least we agree on that .

Posted By: JoinerRe-read my last post sinnerboy. Very carefully.
.

No need - I did so the first time .

Posted By: Joiner As for a professional not maintaining PI cover if producing work to diy standards - I've worked with/for and against quite a few who have managed to do just that! ......I guess I'm lucky to have had a 51 year working life

So quantify the "quite a few" you encountered in 51 years . I bet they were the exception .

You see insist it's a matter of risk . A DIYer may be good and a professional may be bad . What do suppose the odds are - honestly .

Posted By: JoinerA competent diy-er doing the work to a professional standard will always be better than a professional doing the work to a diy standard.

.... appears to be axiomatic doesn't it ? But by your own words you equate professional with good and DIY with bad

Proffesional or DIY?

jamesingram — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 19:24:52 +0100

What about if you're a professional DIYer ??

Proffesional or DIY?

DamonHD — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 19:50:01 +0100

What if you teach yourself a profession?

Rgds

Damon

Proffesional or DIY?

SteamyTea — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 20:52:54 +0100

Posted By: DamonHDWhat if you teach yourself a profession?

I taught myself electrical wiring but still needed to do a Part P course to make it legal (well apart from minor work). I would never claim that my standard is any different, just that I can now do things, like fit a PV panel, legitimately. Oddly though a degree in renewable energy that goes into much more detail does not allow me to do this, nor does my degree in environmental science allow me to trap and release a great crested newt as part of an environmental survey.

I do not entirely agree with legislating for and against everything, but some things are safety critical, such as removing a wall. Should we allow anyone with good intentions and a mallet to start knocking down a structural wall in a block of flats.

Proffesional or DIY?

tony — Mon, 04 Oct 2010 08:33:19 +0100

To demolish a structural wall building regulations are required. there are no requirements as to who can do the work as yet.

Proffesional or DIY?

sinnerboy — Mon, 04 Oct 2010 08:43:06 +0100

Posted By: tony......as yet.

So you would be happy for a "man in a van" to be free to simply knock out a wall in a block of flats ?
No structural engineer / fire officer assessment required Tony ?

Proffesional or DIY?

tony — Mon, 04 Oct 2010 09:07:44 +0100

building regs cover both

Proffesional or DIY?

sinnerboy — Mon, 04 Oct 2010 10:06:19 +0100

Posted By: tonybuilding regs cover both

But SHOULD not according to you right ?

You have posted before

Posted By: tonyMy basic philosophy not to pay fees to others

So you don't value professionals.

So for the third time of asking - would you buy a house that had no professional input ?

Proffesional or DIY?

owlman — Mon, 04 Oct 2010 10:07:13 +0100

I tend to agree with tony's sentiments regarding too much bureaurocracy. I feel that some so called trade organisations and professional bodies are just money making rackets, do they for instance offer warranty for any errant member's shoddy work? I have this vision, maybe incorrectly, of a bunch of trade "academics" who were never any good with "the tools" getting together and deciding to start a professional body and then setting out to lobby all and sundry that they are the new gatekeepers for quality. The politico's are happy to lighten the load so hand over responsibility and we the great unwashed are left with the crap. As an alternative why not have an easily accessible information point where DIYers can run over ideas and be presented with alternatives, a bit like GBF. Or a reorganised building reulatory system, less interfering, and punitive, more a place to discuss plans and ideas, and get real practical help. Lets face it the numbers of DIYers doing the more complex stuff is very small and it's better to give genuine help than have it done secretively, and bodged. Lot's of people on this forum must agree, look at all the freely offered advice.

Proffesional or DIY?

SteamyTea — Mon, 04 Oct 2010 10:11:35 +0100

Tony
The trouble with amateurs attempting to do serious work is that they are often unaware or the rules and standards. So Building Regs are an unknown to them. This is the problem.

Proffesional or DIY?

sinnerboy — Mon, 04 Oct 2010 10:14:14 +0100

Posted By: owlman Lot's of people on this forum must agree, look at all the freely offered advice.

Not me owlman . So now I ask you - would you buy a house off somebody who used no professionals but relied amongst other things on "freely offered advice" from the internet ?

Proffesional or DIY?

owlman — Mon, 04 Oct 2010 10:41:09 +0100

I did say a reorganised building regulatory system as the point of contact.

Proffesional or DIY?

sinnerboy — Mon, 04 Oct 2010 10:43:49 +0100

So "no" then .
Tony ?

Proffesional or DIY?

billt — Mon, 04 Oct 2010 11:09:59 +0100

Posted By: sinnerboy

How would you know that when buying a house?

If the work has been done properly there is no problem, if it hasn't there's likely to be visible evidence of a botcher (DIY or professional) at work.

I don't understand the vehemence of the objection to DIY. To most people DIY means decorating or assembling a flat pack unit. The number of people who will tackle structural work, plumbing or wiring is very, very small. However much you regulate you'll always get the odd bloke who undermines his house or removes a structural wall without reference to common sense or regulations, until we get to 1984 with cameras observing everyone, all the time. (A state that I think a lot of politicians and some members of this board would quite like!)

Posted By: SteamyTeaThe trouble with amateurs attempting to do serious work is that they are often unaware or the rules and standards. So Building Regs are an unknown to them. This is the problem.

Except for the occasional maverick I would expect that anyone doing serious DIY is well aware of Building Regs and able to research standards. Apart from the amazing number and continuous variation of BR, it's quite easy to find out the requirements for any particular piece of work you may want to do.

Of course, the Building Regs, which were originally introduced to ensure minimum standards of structural safety and water tightness have long lost their original function and seem to be designed to direct work to 'professional'.

Why is it necessary to control peoples activities so closely? I don't see any evidence of harm being done by DIYers. The occasional odd-ball gets massive exposure in the press. Most of the serious building related accidents that you hear about involve work done by professionals, not amateurs.

Proffesional or DIY?

JTGreen — Mon, 04 Oct 2010 11:12:35 +0100

It's also about how you value your time. Yes, lots of people can become very skilled amateurs (in the true meaning of that word) and all power to them. And probably there should be some mechanism to allow their work to be certified at low cost (although the reduced costs of DIY surely provide a powerful incentive, provided you are good at the work and enjoy it enough to feel that the time you give to it is 'free' - a labour of love). I'm handier than plenty of people, but wish I was more so - I don't think my generation has been brought up with a lot of useful basic skills. The spec for work on the house includes teaching me some of that stuff.

But, even if I were more competent, I would not want to do the bulk of work on a major refurb. If I had to prep the woodwork for painting in my house, I would feel crushingly bored and probably do a bad job as a result, on account of just wanting to get it over with. I have a specialised skill set already, and enjoy my work. So I don't begrudge paying other people who have time and skills that I don't have. I don't assume that just because they aren't me, they will do a poorer job.

Proffesional or DIY?

barney — Mon, 04 Oct 2010 13:07:00 +0100

To be fair, there is very little stopping anyone undertaking a DIY approach to virtually any aspect of both domestic and non domestic construction.

What limitations that do exist are based on achieving so called minimum compliance - be that certified by building control or by third party assessment organizations.

For sure, it doesn't follow that DIY is bad and professional is good (there are plenty of examples of s**t work in both camps).

I think the key to the matter is that understanding where something has the potential to go badly wrong - say the difference between a bad DIY plastering job on a chimmney breast or the DIY choice to remove said chimmney breast without realising the implications of that action - surely that is where the need for professionals arises. You could extend the example to almost any elemnt of the construction

I suspect that the OP is just having a bit of a gripe over the fact that he feels confident to install a PV array but can't DIY if he wants to exploit the FITS

Regards

Barney