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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorStuartB
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2010
     
    Is it more efficient to leave your gas central heating on constantly at say 19c which allows the house to heat up and then tick over rather than letting it go cold overnight then heat up in the morning cool during the day then give it a further boost in the evening?

    Any evidence to support this?
    • CommentAuthorevan
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2010
     
    No.
  1.  
    It may not be efficient in terms of fuel use but you may find the conditions more comfortable.

    It also depenss on the heavyweight/lightweight nature or your house. For example a house which has been internally insulated will have a very quick response to heating, One which is thermally massive internally will absorb more of the energy from the air into the fabric meaning a much slower response.
    So in comfort terms I would say 'it depends'

    My house has solid uninsulated stone walls. I heat to 19degree constantly between 7am -10pm. 13degrees overnight.
  2.  
    The heat loss depends upon the difference in temperature between inside & outside. So allowing the internal temperature to fall reduces the heat losses.

    If you live in a lightweight/timber frame house or one with poor insulation & you are heating with natural gas then better to just heat the house when you're in & need the heat.

    If you live in a heavyweight/masonry house with high levels of insulation that only loses 1 or 2 degrees per day without heating then the question becomes what is the most efficient way of getting the heat into the house during a 24 hour period. If you're using natural gas then do whatever is most comfortable. If you're using a ground source heat pump then it's worth looking at whether you could use it purely during the low rate Economy 7 period & make use of solar gain during the day.

    David
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2010
     
    Also depends how clever a gas boiler is (and/or how well set up). Heating a house from cold means that the boiler is running as hard as it can and the radiators are hot. Often that means the boiler is too hot to be condensing.

    Keeping a warm house 'ticking over' needs less heat so the radiators can be cooler and the boiler can be in condensing mode. Which makes more efficient use of the fuel (less CO2 and less money).

    So there's another factor to throw into the calculation.

    There are similar issues with heat pumps and COP, I believe.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2010 edited
     
    Also, to add to DJH's comments, when the boiler is on a certain amount of heat goes to heating up the boiler itself (the metalwork) and some will go out the flu, this does not happen when the boiler is off. If the boiler is inside (as most are) the heat in the boiler goes into the house anyway with only the flu heat lost. If the flu temperature is the same as the ambient temperature then there is no problem with heat loss (but it will be higher). Remember there is a difference between Heat and Temperature.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2010
     
    Posted By: davidfreeboroughThe heat loss depends upon the difference in temperature between inside & outside. So allowing the internal temperature to fall reduces the heat losses.


    What David said. Lower average temperature = lower heat losses.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2010
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: StuartB</cite>Is it more efficient to leave your gas central heating on constantly at say 19c which allows the house to heat up and then tick over rather than letting it go cold overnight then heat up in the morning cool during the day then give it a further boost in the evening?

    Any evidence to support this?</blockquote>

    It is very simple --- the colder the house the less energy it will use. In terms of efficiency there are many aspects, I am unconvinced that you are meaning to talk about efficiency rather I am thinking that you are trying to talk about cost effectiveness or the best way to pay for fuel for the maximum benefit. Unfortunately the less fuel you use the less it will cost and the colder the house will be. You get what you pay for

    When I had a heating system I ran it on a chronostat, 15.5C overnight, 18C in the morning for getting up, 16 during the day, 19 when the kids came home and 21 when we all sat down, 22C all day Sunday etc. This is not the cheapest or most efficient way to run it but it was comfortable, my heating only came on in the night twice in 20 years under that regieme.
    • CommentAuthorStuartB
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2010 edited
     
    Thanks for the feedback so far, it would probably help if I gave a bit more detail.

    3 bed detached cottage 200 years old, stone built with no wall insulation, part double and single glazing, wooden floors and no underfloor insulation. Basic loft insulation and draught proofing but not great. House is baltic without heating.

    New 37kw Worcester combi boiler feeding undersized old central heating system that takes an age to get the house up to 19c.

    Do I leave the heating on constant or heat in bursts? What is the most cost/energy efficient?
    • CommentAuthorbrig001
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2010
     
    Suppose you have a solid thermally heavy wall like StuartB has, and you heat it for 12 hours then not for 12 hours. Is it possible to set up a wave of heat travelling through the wall? So, at the end of 12 hours of heating, the inside of the wall reaches a maximum. The heat travels through the wall to the outside. The inside of the wall cools to a minimum over the next 12 hours, by which time the outside of the wall is at a maximum and losing heat to the atmosphere.

    If these time constants line up, I would imagine that you would have to overheat the air in the house at the start of the heating period to allow for the large radiant losses you would feel to the now cold inner face of the wall. In this case, might it be more economical to keep the temperature relatively constant?

    Please bear in mind that I have no training in this sort of thing, so could be talking complete rubbish...
    Brian.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2010
     
    Why not insulate and draughtproof it?
    • CommentAuthorStuartB
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2010
     
    Tony, have done as much as possible but we are renting until we find a plot to build so reluctant to spend too much. Landlord will not cough up for 'extra' insulation.
  3.  
    Hi Suart, How long is it since the boiler was fitted? I have a similar house to yours and have no problem reaching 19 deg. I would run the heating on 19der all day and 16deg all night to 'charge up' the massive structure. Short bursts will just be lost into the thermal mass very quickly kepping your air temperature vey low.
    • CommentAuthorStuartB
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2010
     
    Mike, boiler was new in June so that's not an issue, it's the radiators that are too small or in the case of the kitchen non existent (may have to fork out to fit one).

    Do you think this method would work.

    Run it on short bursts and take the gas meter reading for a 24 hour period, then put it on constant for a week to allow build up of heat in the thermal mass and then take a 24 hour reading.
  4.  
    I dont think short bursts will work. Sounds like you dont have enough radiators but I would advise getting a plumber to check the sizing before you buy another one. Whoever fitted your boiler should have highlighted the undersizing to you when they did the work. Is the pipework 8mm or 10mm microbore by any chance? This may also be a contributing factor if it is clogged up? Has the system been flushed at all? This is also best practice when renewing a boiler unless the original pipework is *known* to be clear.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2010
     
    If you can work out the thermal response time for your building then you should be able to calculate the ideal 'burn time' and temperature.
    Start by heating the building up, then when it is dark get two thermometers, one inside and one outside, and every ten minutes not the temperature readings. Do this for a couple of hours. Plot Temperature difference against time and you should have an exponential decay curve, that's one that shows a large drop initially and then starts to flatten out as the temperature difference tends toward zero. Then turn the heating on and see how long it takes to get up to the temperature you want, say 20C. To make it really interesting take meter readings over this period. Again plot against time and you should have a exponential growth curve (one that starts quickly and ends slowly). You will notice that for any given temperature difference there is a difference in the rate of change between heating and cooling (cooling being quicker). So to find the ideal 'burn time' find the time difference at 1C above and 1C below the temperature you want and calculate the time it takes to raise the temperance to the upper bound (heating) and then how long to reach the lower bound (cooling). You will now know how long to have the boiler on for and how long to have it off for to hold the temperature around what you want.
    Simple eh.

    Different outside temperatures will change the slope of the line, but not by much as you have thick walls and the thermal response time will be pretty slow.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2010
     
    most likely result will be on all the time!!
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2010
     
    Probably Tony :bigsmile:
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