Renewable Energy: Fuel for the 21st Century?

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- CommentAuthorBrianwilson
- CommentTimeJan 9th 2011
Steamy- What do you define as green energy company ?
Rgds
Brian
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeJan 9th 2011
No expert but consider large scale wind developers, smaller scale hydro people, wave and small geothermal. Waste to gas maybe. PV and ST is my very favourite but PV is energy intensive but what isn't. Really depends on the technology used and how much 'collateral' damage is associated with it.
Using less is really the way to go but don't know of any companies that can be invested in.

As an aside, and also in the Sunday Times, there was an article about an oil company that also owned the price comparison website who were stitching people up over the cold spell. Interesting that they named a local company to me as one that did not enter into this practice. Mind you it was not that cold down here.
- CommentAuthorDamonHD
- CommentTimeJan 9th 2011 edited
ST: I wouldn't have a TV at all and for years didn't and had a running battle with the licensing people who called me every name under the sun so I escalated as far as the head of that shameless outfit and suggested that there were laws against calling people crooks... Now, years later, my other half (she pays the licence fee) and the sprogs watch the TV; I still cannot usually bear to be in the room.

Brian: Dale Vince would describe his baby (Ecotricity) as a green energy company. It's not run for profit, but instead to put up the maximum possible amount of zero-carbon renewable electricity (mainly macro wind) with its revenues.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeJan 9th 2011
I had the same battle, they even asked my neighbours about it. They are not so bad now, mind you no one around here has a TV, all way too poor.

If Ecotricity is a NFP company how are shareholders treated, is it the same as any other company?
- CommentAuthorDamonHD
- CommentTimeJan 9th 2011
DV owns all the shares AFAIK. And he's not selling.

Rgds

Damon
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeJan 9th 2011
Good on him.

Does make investing in the 'green field' a bit difficult as often they have areas that are not so green. Not that I have spare cash this week anyway.
- CommentAuthorDamonHD
- CommentTimeJan 9th 2011 edited
But the EcoBonds that Ecotricity recently issued were quite interesting and I bought some... Decent interest rate, and since I'm not expecting to take my money out again if I can help it, quite like buying shares with a guaranteed dividend for a good cause IMHO.

Rgds

Damon
- CommentAuthorBrianwilson
- CommentTimeJan 10th 2011
Interesting to note wheat prices reached all time high in UK last week , same time as announcement that largest bioethanol plant using 1,100.000 tonnes of wheat per year is to commence operation. Food riots reported in various Countries but UK encouraging farmers to change 60,000 ha land use from wheat production to dedicated biomass .Fuel for 21st Century at what cost?
Rgds
Brian
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeJan 10th 2011
Interesting Brian
Wheat yields are down because of the failed harvests as well. Production costs are up too because of the higher price of oil. Coal prices are up because of the floods in Australia. PV prices are coming down, consumer goods manufactured in China are going up. Can't read too much into it.
Now if I could just find that link to world food production which showed that there was more land turned over to food production I would have some interesting data to work with, cant find it on he UN or the World Bank sites. Anyone know where it is. The BBC did a program year before last on it.
- CommentAuthorJoiner
- CommentTimeJan 10th 2011
This...

"Last year, he said, US farmers distorted the world market for cereals by growing 14m tonnes, or 20% of the whole maize crop, for ethanol for vehicles. This took millions of hectares of land out of food production and nearly doubled the price of maize. Mr Bush this year called for steep rises in ethanol production as part of plans to reduce petrol demand by 20% by 2017."

...came from this...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/nov/03/food.climatechange

And that was in 2007, and nothing's improved since then and if anything has worsened...

http://www.mysinchew.com/node/9512

And just to make everyone's day...

http://www.biofuelwatch.org.uk/foodcrisis.php
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeJan 10th 2011 edited
There is this bit as well, before Bush said that he wanted to reduce the reliance on imported oil, which isn't the same as saying that 'lets grow biofuel at the expense of all else'

http://www.un.org/en/globalissues/food/index.shtml

Still searching
Found it
http://faostat.fao.org/site/339/default.aspx

This pages leads to searchable databases and generates reports
http://www.fao.org/corp/statistics/en/
- CommentAuthorBrianwilson
- CommentTimeJan 10th 2011
There is another disturbing twist on biofuels with report that the German chicken,egg dioxin problem originates with food sourced from ethanol plant. Our new bioethanol plant comes with claims that it will be largest animal food supplier in UK ! Can only hope due diligence, duty of care and joined up thinking will be applied in order to avoid another disaster or are they sadly promises no longer considered important ?

Rgds
Brian
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeJan 10th 2011
The problem with inverters (and power supply-like systems in general) is the same as that with new boilers. Namely, improvements in materials technology.

The first example I came across was with cars many years ago. They learned enough about the corrosion rates of steel plate to be able to predict failure rates accurately and reduced the plate thickness of body panels so they would last just longer than the warranty period before starting to corrode. No more long-lived moggie minors etc.

Boilers are the same. They used to be made of chunky materials, now they're engineered 'better' and so are more efficient and can be lifted a lot more easily. But they can also corrode through a lot faster.

Power circuits depend on capacitors. Simplistically, lots of layers of tinfoil and paper (or plastic) insulation all rolled up. They used to be literally made that way. Nowadays they can be made in much more advanced ways with much thinner layers. Over time the metal can make passages through the insulation. The result is lots of failures in circuits that used to work fine. Some motherboards are now advertised with 'reliable' capacitors whereas capacitors used to be viewed as one of the most reliable components on the board. My central heating controller had a failure - guess what? Apparently it's the standard failure mode for the part but luckily the capacitor could be replaced.
- CommentAuthorgcar90
- CommentTimeJan 10th 2011
Lot of plastic parts in modern combis, much cheaper than brass which is itself much thinner than in old appliances. Its a terrible waste of resources to have things that take a lot of energy and effort to make break down after a relatively short service life.
- CommentAuthorDamonHD
- CommentTimeJan 10th 2011
But it's a terrible waste of resources to over-engineer everything too. So a sweet-spot needs to be found!

Rgds

Damon
- CommentAuthorgcar90
- CommentTimeJan 10th 2011
Absolutely. Looks like the sweetspot for the manufacturer is in use today but not for the consumer.
- CommentAuthorrenewablejohn
- CommentTimeJan 26th 2011 edited
Posted By: BrianwilsonInteresting to note wheat prices reached all time high in UK last week , same time as announcement that largest bioethanol plant using 1,100.000 tonnes of wheat per year is to commence operation. Food riots reported in various Countries but UK encouraging farmers to change 60,000 ha land use from wheat production to dedicated biomass .Fuel for 21st Century at what cost?
Rgds
Brian

Not surprising wheat prices always go up at this time of year which is why farmers receive a premium for storage.As for changing land usage the farms will still be growing the same amount of wheat just the use will be different. If you called it whisky production instead of bioethanol would you have such a gut reaction. Would you rather go back to the bad old days of wheat surplus, low wheat prices which did not cover the cost of cultivation with the EEC crazy solution of set aside paying farmers for doing nothing.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeJan 26th 2011 edited
John
You sound like me

I fear we may well go back to a similar system as 'energy security' becomes a political issue.
- CommentAuthorrenewablejohn
- CommentTimeJan 26th 2011
Brianwilson comment 30,12,2010 re transportation of biomass

I have not been on the forum for a while so catching up on comments made unfortunately the quote system appears not to allow old quotes.

Brian

On 30.12.2010 you outlined your perceived problems of transporting biomass long distance. I dont know how old your sources are but these problems have all been solved by the use of pelleted torrefied wood. Tne moisture content of the torrefied wood is only 2-3%. It is sterile material due to the heat treatment. It has a calorific value
similar to coal and characteristics of coal without the coal pollution. And like coal does not disintegrate in the rain so can be stored outside but obviously better stored in a dry place.
- CommentAuthorJoiner
- CommentTimeJan 26th 2011
John - What are the embedded carbon figures for torrefied wood?

http://www.silvatimber.co.uk/media/pdfs/torrefied-wood/torrefied-wood-explained.pdf
- CommentAuthorevan
- CommentTimeJan 26th 2011
It would be interesting to know if such pellets are actually available and what is their price compared to normal compressed sawdust pellets. The energy cost will show up there if it's as bad as it sounds.
- CommentAuthorrenewablejohn
- CommentTimeJan 26th 2011
Back to the thread heading of fuel for the 21st Century.

Biomass and Solar have got to be the way forward.

However Biomass needs to be put into the context of efficient usage of a scarce resource. So white elephants like the biomass plant at Lockerbie should not be approved. You would not consider burning unseasoned timber on a domestic stove with moisture content of 53% so why design a biomass plant to operate in this way. All you get is an inefficient plant which uses twice as much timber to what is actually required. A far better example would be Gussing in Austria whereby the gas from the Biomass can be pumped into the national grid and the waste heat used for district heating. Gussing is now old technology but it could be brought up to date by making it a combined cycle plant replacing the Jenbacher generator with a gas turbine with the exhaust from the turbine and heat recovered from the gasification plant driving a steam turbine with the waste heat from the steam turbine used for district heating.
- CommentAuthorBrianwilson
- CommentTimeJan 26th 2011
renewablejohn- Your comment "farms still growing the same amount of wheat just the use would be different" sums up my concern. It is a question of which use should be the priority with rapid increase in food costs part due to diversion of basics into ethanol production. I do suspect the food scare scenario is part of move to push GM acceptance but with increasing population and large amounts of food being lost due to natural disasters should we be delberately diverting food into fuel tied to 25 yr commitment.
I understand set aside argument has been addressed and spare low grade land is generally used for miscanthus(elephant grass) for biomass feedstock although yields apparantly disappointing.
S.T. raises point of fuel security but ethanol and biomass projects are mainly being sited in port locations which points to import of feedstock, puts us into world market pressures but it is a complex subject . The plant operators indicate preferred use of indigenous supply but surely bottom line is cheapest source which questions any hope of price stability for farmer.Probably I am just missing something again.
- CommentAuthorrenewablejohn
- CommentTimeJan 26th 2011 edited
Posted By: JoinerJohn - What are the embedded carbon figures for torrefied wood?

http://www.silvatimber.co.uk/media/pdfs/torrefied-wood/torrefied-wood-explained.pdf" rel="nofollow" >http://www.silvatimber.co.uk/media/pdfs/torrefied-wood/torrefied-wood-explained.pdf

Torrefied wood is a by product of our gasification plant as it uses the waste heat from the gasifier but then as part of the torrefication process gives of steam and volatiles which are used in the gasifier to produce better quality gas. The only direct cost is the rotary dryer motor and the pellet press motor so pretty minimal and could be negative given the upgrade of woodgas quality with the use of steam.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeJan 26th 2011 edited
Posted By: renewablejohnIt has a calorific value
similar to coal and characteristics of coal without the coal pollution

Do you have some data on the emissions? What seems to be of concern here is the particulates, not just CO2.

Posted By: Brianwilsonbut ethanol and biomass projects are mainly being sited in port locations

More likely because they are already there, they have the infrastructure and skill set locally, no point rebuilding just to be near a local population centre.
There is also the 'Buncefield' problem, and that was just storage. Somewhere I have a picture of my old office, was an impressive bang. So better that at least one side is away from a population centre.
- CommentAuthorrenewablejohn
- CommentTimeJan 26th 2011 edited
Posted By: evanIt would be interesting to know if such pellets are actually available and what is their price compared to normal compressed sawdust pellets. The energy cost will show up there if it's as bad as it sounds.

Energy cost wise torrefied wood is easier to pelletise than wood pellets as the material is more friable. As it is a direct substitution to coal it will be marketed at a similar price to coal. I cannot see it being available on the domestic market in the near future as the interest generated to date has been with commercial installations who have coal fired boilers who want a renewable solution without having to install a new wood pellet boiler
- CommentAuthorBrianwilson
- CommentTimeJan 26th 2011
The typical UK large biomass project is based on import of woodchip, 19% air content plus water. Storage shown to be outdoor , 1 month feedstock 200,000 tonnes . Brazil detailed as proposed source.
We are back to basic concern of is it best use of resources and what hazardous content comes out of the fluestack compared with combustion alternatives ?
In UK we are aware there are better ways to do things but appear reluctant to embrace them,why? I put my pennyworth in on negatives of Lockerbie biomass project but ignored because those involved considered it to be a good idea ( C02 reduction claim) but is it?
- CommentAuthorrenewablejohn
- CommentTimeJan 26th 2011 edited
Posted By: Brianwilsonrenewablejohn- Your comment "farms still growing the same amount of wheat just the use would be different" sums up my concern. It is a question of which use should be the priority with rapid increase in food costs part due to diversion of basics into ethanol production. I do suspect the food scare scenario is part of move to push GM acceptance but with increasing population and large amounts of food being lost due to natural disasters should we be delberately diverting food into fuel tied to 25 yr commitment.
I understand set aside argument has been addressed and spare low grade land is generally used for miscanthus(elephant grass) for biomass feedstock although yields apparantly disappointing.
S.T. raises point of fuel security but ethanol and biomass projects are mainly being sited in port locations which points to import of feedstock, puts us into world market pressures but it is a complex subject . The plant operators indicate preferred use of indigenous supply but surely bottom line is cheapest source which questions any hope of price stability for farmer.Probably I am just missing something again.

I think you under estimate the intelligence of farmers. I cannot see many farmers signing up for 25 years with no get out clause especially after so many have had their fingers burnt with the miscanthus debacle of growing crops only to find 5 years down the line that the power station has closed.
- CommentAuthorJoiner
- CommentTimeJan 26th 2011
Can I just remind everyone that the "21st century" in the thread heading is already here and so we're not talking about some distant future. Brian's concern is not just for what's happening now, but for what's proposed over the next 25 years (of contracts) in this 21st century.

I just want someone to tell me why we're planning to import a fuel that will poison us if burnt in plants designed and built in the face of overwhelming evidence of the KNOWN consequences. What's happening and what's planned to continue happening is a sin of commission not omission. Why the denial in the face of the facts if not for commercial gain?
- CommentAuthorevan
- CommentTimeJan 26th 2011 edited
Posted By: renewablejohn
Posted By: evanIt would be interesting to know if such pellets are actually available and what is their price compared to normal compressed sawdust pellets. The energy cost will show up there if it's as bad as it sounds.

Energy cost wise torrefied wood is easier to pelletise than wood pellets as the material is more friable. As it is a direct substitution to coal it will be marketed at a similar price to coal. I cannot see it being available on the domestic market in the near future as the interest generated to date has been with commercial installations who have coal fired boilers who want a renewable solution without having to install a new wood pellet boiler

Thanks for the info. That does sounds good as a by-product of particular processes, but it also sounds like it would not scale up very well due to that reliance on process heat.

A bit like using the "free" waste product of chip shops to fuel cars, there's just not enough to go around..

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Renewable Energy: Fuel for the 21st Century?