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      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2007
     
    I've long had the idea of external-cladding existing buildings with straw bales, rendered, as the ideal way of super-insulation-with-restyling that's going to have to happen to the whole building stock. But how to support the considerable weight and thickness of the straw-bale skin? Katymac's project has got me thinking about that! The answer (as it often is!) is railway sleepers and/or telegraph poles.
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      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2007
     
    Can't you somehow use the roof trusses & the inner wall?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2007
     
    If the strawbales are to be supported off the ground, they'll need
    Option A: a 450wide masonry plinth to keep the bales 200 or whatever above GL. Maybe that has to go right down to a new or widened found at normal found depth, 1m below GL - big job, lots of wicked concrete.
    Option B: or maybe the Bldg Insp would accept that as the bales are non-structural, and subject to much movement anyway, they could be on a surface strip of concrete? Following topsoil removal, of course. The bales would need to be tied back to the existing wall to prevent toppling outward, but in such a way that the bales wouldn't put eccentric down-load on the walls, as they settle or heave.
    Option C: or maybe on railway sleepers resting on rammed no-fines fill (e.g. clean scalpings) in a topsoil-depth trench. The sleepers' laid-flat height would raise the bales 150 above GL and along with the scalpings would form an effective DPC, though there could be a layer of polythene in there too.
    If essential to solidly support the strawbale skin in-unit with the existing wall, instead of putting it on equally deep founds and lots of underground masonry (Option A),
    Option D: the bales could be supported on a platform cantilevered off the existing wall just above GL. The platform would consist of pairs of sleepers laid flat side by side - about 500 wide x 150 thick vertically. These would span between heavy cantilever brackets fixed to the wall. But actually that's not possible - the overturning force on the wall from a series of such cantilever brackets would be enormous.
    Option E: it would be OK if the load was placed on the outer skin as a simple down-load, without the rotational element. The corners (and internal angles) of the building are key to this. Take the southwest corner. The pair of sleepers along the south wall actually lap over the top of those along the west wall, and they're bolted face-to-face together where they lap. Each pair then holds the other pair flat - all rotational effect is contained within the stiff L-shape that you've created, that will stay flat. All that remains is down-load and there's several ways that can be easily transfered to the centreline of the outer skin, both at external angles (corners) and at internal angles. This works where angles are close enough together for sleepers (or extra-long points sleepers) to span between. For longer distances, telegraph poles, but obviously more difficult to bolt rigidly together.
    Option F: For yet longer walls, no alternative but ground-bearing support piers on deep founds - but that's nothing compared to a continuous plinth.
    Option G: in Katymac's case, if her barn turns out to have steel columns @ 3.5c/cs, then probably true cantilever brackets could be welded, bolted or otherwise hung from them, or strapped round the masonry piers that surround them. Long point sleepers or telegraph poles would be needed. The corners would be done as Option E, the middles of the gable ends as Option F - maybe at the flanks of french doors?
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      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2007
     
    A seems a lot of effort

    I like B & C

    Don't understand D, E & F are way above my head

    G I don't have steel posts
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      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2007
     
    So you'll clear B or C with the Bldg Insp? If he says no to shallow founds, then E and F are the gd option, and sooner or later you're going to need a helpful kind of structural engineer - he'll make it clear to you. If he disputes "there's several ways that can be easily transfered to the centreline of the outer skin" then I'll give him a talking-to!
    At last we can write steel columns out of the plot!
  1.  
    Katy, I can't remember all the history. Is there a reason why s/b cannot be used internally? Is space the issue? If it isn't, might Bldg Control maybe accept s/b on dpc on exg floor slab? No, I don't think it's that likely either, but I throw it in to the discussion.
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      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2007
     
    Throwing away 26m2 of useful floorspace, which exists, and would cost at least £20,000 to build, at conventional tender prices. Also, the 150mm thick existing blockwork will provide some thermal massiveness if left exposed internally, internal straw bales less so.
  2.  
    Space sacrifice accepted, but you may be able to argue for no extra footing. May be much easier and less arguing with B.C.
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      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2007
     
    If I insulate internally then I have to plaster & render - I can only afford one or the other
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      CommentAuthorMartian
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2007
     
    I think a plinth of Poroton blocks with additional internal or external insulation would work below the strawbale with a fairly shallow strip footing of around 500-600mm deep. There should be no need for more than about 250mm of concrete in the bottom for a lightweight wall like this.
    http://www.fbt.ie/poroton.html
    http://www.ebuild.co.uk/freeads.php?id=704
    To tie the strawbales to the masonry I would have flat stainless steel strips bent and drilled to allow them to hook around the hazel rods and be screwed to the blockwork. Ask your local BCO's what they reckon.
  3.  
    Posted By: MartianThere should be no need for more than about 250mm of concrete in the bottom for a lightweight wall like this.


    Why use any concrete at all? Haven't you missed the point of strawbales? It's about getting away from this rediculous addiction to Ordinary Portland Cement.
    •  
      CommentAuthorOJ
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2007 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertomThrowing away 26m2 of useful floorspace, which exists, and would cost at least £20,000 to build, at conventional tender prices. Also, the 150mm thick existing blockwork will provide some thermal massiveness if left exposed internally, internal straw bales less so.


    Maybe a more thermally lightweight /responsive building would be better if this is a low occupancy building?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2007 edited
     
    Well, Martian as one of Them, do you think a shallow found, accepting a bit of heave etc, wd be OK for the straw bale skin?
    Another way of tieing back, which might make the hazel rods unnecessary, wd be say 300w galv EML or maybe stronger mesh, chicken wire or even D49, screwed and washered to the wall and turmed out horizontal as continuous skirt built into every or every alternate course of straw bale. That's how Cotswold freestone (apparently dry jointed) facings are attached to their blockwork backing - nice and flexible.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMartian
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2007
     
    Tom,
    I am a poacher turned gamekeeper :-)
    For several years I ran my own building business specialising in the renovation of listed buildings. On one job (a 17th century timber frame cottage with blacksmith's forge attached) we rebuilt an entire gable end in reclaimed brick and block off a very shallow strip footing (About 16 - 18" deep and 9" thick) with the approval of the architect. We just bunged some A142 mesh in and went a bit wider. Personally for strawbale and dependant on ground conditions and plinth construction, I would be happy with less than that, and with limecrete too.
    I would worry a bit about thermal bridging with the sort of tying-in you are considering. Surely the hazel binding rods will be driven down through the bales anyway so you might as well use them for anchorage.
    • CommentAuthorGuest
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2007
     
    Have you thought of rammed tyre foundation? After tests by Aamazon nails, thet discovered the filled tyres to be stronger than concrete. Also, at their build of the meeting room for Eco building society, they managed to get permission for shallow foundations due to the straw bale light loads.
    Everyone, be so careful with your external south west facing walls, especially if you have windows and openings. Make sure the overhang is even more tham 500mm and consider cladding with larch that face. The driving horizontal rains I am facing is causing me to look at cladding now.This is Rachel by the way- I couldn't log in!
  4.  
    An interesting slide show of a strawbale construction:

    Lieve says "I've posted some pictures of the construction phases of my house on the web.
    You can view them in folder 'strobalen jun03-jul 04' of
    http://lvlfotos.spaces.live.com/
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