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  1.  
    Is it the time for RES to sell the project as per Scunthorpe example?
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJun 1st 2011 edited
     
    There are two private members bills that aim to limit how close turbines can be to houses unless the owners give consent. Currently no wind turbines are errected without land owners permission and it's already common for developers to have to sign up several land owners to "make space". These Bills wouldn't stop wind farms being developed - but they would just mean more land owners being involved. Isn't that a government objective - greater local involvement?

    Why not ask your MP to attend the following debates...

    The second reading of Mr Chris Heaton Harris’s Onshore Wind Turbines (Proximity of Habitation) Bill will take place in the House of Commons after 9.30am on Friday 10th June. The Bill is placed at item number four on the Commons Order Paper. See:

    http://services.parliament.uk/calendar/#/calendar/Commons/MainChamber/2011/6/10/events.html

    You can review the wording of this Private Members Bill at:

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2010-2012/0108/cbill_2010-20120108_en_1.htm

    Lord Reay will simultaneously present the second reading of his Wind Turbines (Minimum Distances from Residential Premises) Bill to the House of Lords after 10.00am on the same day. This is placed at item number two on the House of Lords Order Paper.

    http://services.parliament.uk/calendar/#/calendar/Lords/MainChamber/2011/6/10/events.html

    You can review the wording of Lord Reay’s Private Members Bill at:

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201011/ldbills/017/11017.1-i.html
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJun 1st 2011
     
    The Lords' Bill has more sensible distances than Harris's, although that's not saying a lot, given the variables we now know to be operating in the real world.

    I was particular taken with the exception to the conditions in the Lords' Bill:

    3 Exception

    (1) The local authority may grant planning permission for the construction of a wind turbine generator which does not meet the minimum distance requirement under section 2(4) if the condition under subsection (2) is met.

    (2) The condition is that the owners of all residential premises which fall within the minimum distance requirement for the proposed wind turbine generator must agree in writing to the construction of the wind turbine generator.


    Episode 3 brought home the fact that some people who opposed the idea of wind farms do so AFTER they had accepted the proposed installation (in fact were quite keen on such a "green" idea), on the basis of reassurances over noise (virtual absence of) given by the wind farm development company, but who subsequently learnt that the reality was more than a little bit different! So what price written consent a priori?
    • CommentAuthormarktime
    • CommentTimeJun 1st 2011
     
    How many anecdotes make a data? Rhetorical, ST, so don't come sciency with me. :bigsmile:

    Surfers on the south coast of Tenerife, El Medano, rated tenth in the world as a surfers paradise, are saying the wind and waves are disappearing. What used to blow for 300 days a year blows for less than 20 days a month. The response of AEMET, Spain's meteorological agency, is that they don't have wind data for this location but there is a measureable trend towards shifting wind patterns.
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeJun 1st 2011
     
    Please don't change units like that - it prevents easy comprehension: What used to blow for 300 days a year blows for less than 240 days a year
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2011
     
    :bigsmile:
  2.  
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/02/wind-farms-renewable-energy
    If this is true there would appear to be no need to buid near homes.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2011 edited
     
    Wind farms are not taking over Britain's countrysideThey provide many benefits but in England there is still only one turbine per 100 square miles


    or put it another way...

    In each 10 mile x 10 mile square there is one turbine?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2011 edited
     
    Posted By: CWattersor put it another way...

    In each 10 mile x 10 mile square there is one turbine?


    Depends on the distribution, how many times have I said that you cannot apply means to individual cases :wink:

    Or it could be shown that in every 9.9 mile by 9.9mile square there are no turbines.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2011
     
    Obviously but she started it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2011
     
    :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthormarktime
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2011
     
    ST: "Depends on the distribution, how many times have I said that you cannot apply means to individual cases"

    Couldn't resist it, eh, ST? :bigsmile:

    wookey, I bring a bit of dramatic license into your life and you chastise me for it. Shame on you. :shamed:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2011
     
    Mathematics, the purest language there is :bigsmile:
  3.  
    Applying means reminds me of old saying "man with one foot in fire and other in bucket of ice has mean temp within limits but is he comfortable ?".
  4.  
    "man with one foot in fire and other in bucket of ice has mean temp within limits but is he comfortable ?".
    Erm
    Mr. Pedantic says; "....but he is uncomfortable" or " "....and he is comfortable" (sarcasm?)
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2011
     
    "Mathematics, the purest language there is"

    All Greek to me! :confused:
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2011
     
    Posted By: BrianwilsonApplying means reminds me of old saying "man with one foot in fire and other in bucket of ice has mean temp within limits but is he comfortable ?".

    Hmm, so the temp of the fire is what? Certainly > 100 C. The bucket of ice is 0 C. So the mean is > 50 C. Which I wouldn't call "within limits". I'd say it was fatal.

    Slightly flawed analogy/metaphor/epithet/whatever. Hrmmph!

    No greek there.
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2011
     
    More reasonably and on-topic: "University of Adelaide acoustics researchers are investigating the causes of wind turbine noise with the aim of making them quieter and solving 'wind turbine syndrome'."

    http://www.adelaide.edu.au/news/news45881.html
    • CommentAuthormartin.n
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2011 edited
     
    I definitely agree that the noise aspect has been very badly handled, especially by Govt regs. But in order to have windfarms near transmission lines there are likely to be many cases where a single house is affected by noise, so a possible answer is to buy out the affected house. If Govt guidelines suggested this as a planning condition (that the developer must buy out houses affected by noise if requested by the owner)that would ease matters. So I would not specify a distance, but rather after a windfarm is built a householder (within a reasonable distance) could demand that the developer fund a noise survey inside his/her home, and if the noise is excessive could demand that the developer buy the home at pre windfarm value (or reduce the noise). What happens elsewhere in Europe??
    I also agree that we should not be overly reliant on intermittent RE, hence I am keen on CCS and even nuclear. Ideally new nuclear plants would not only be failsafe, but would be fueled at least in part by waste from existing moron designed plants, and/or surplus nuclear weapons.
    • CommentAuthormartin.n
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2011 edited
     
    Joiner wrote: "Martin, it's worth having a read through REF's summary of performance."
    Done, quite interesting.


    .and wrote.."where you'll note that opposition to wind as a consistent alternative to ff isn't as unfounded as you believe, or rather, that unqualified support for wind despite its inconsistent nature isn't as wise as some would argue".
    I am well aware of the limitations of intermittent RE; ideally intermittent sources should be paired with large hydro, but we are not one of the lucky few countries with major large hydro resources, so we need to pair it with open cycle gas turbines (or preferably gas turbines which can run as either open or combined cycle).The REF are keen on biomass, but I am a bit squeamish about starving peasants to death just so that we can import loads of biomass. So the role of biomass needs to be limited to wastes and what we can grow in the UK withour reducing our food production.

    Solar is a non starter in the UK because its annual output profile is the exact reverse of our demand profile.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2011
     
    Posted By: djhMore reasonably and on-topic: "University of Adelaide acoustics researchers are investigating the causes of wind turbine noise with the aim of making them quieter and solving 'wind turbine syndrome'."

    http://www.adelaide.edu.au/news/news45881.html" rel="nofollow" >http://www.adelaide.edu.au/news/news45881.html



    Interesting comments in there worth repeating...

    Quote;

    "Wind turbine noise is very directional. Someone living at the base might not have a problem but two kilometres away, it might be keeping them awake at night," he said.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2011
     
    "Solar is a non starter in the UK because its annual output profile is the exact reverse of our demand profile"

    You won't find anyone on here suggesting solar can be anything but part of a very wide mix, Martin, and then a relatively small component. The storage capacity built into most of the solar thermal systems mooted on here makes it a very viable resource and, certainly as part of community systems, has the potential to be a significant player overall by reducing demand on the mainstream supply chain.

    Pv is another matter. Daytime electricity supply is needed and to supplement individual household (and community) systems there are quite large areas suitable for such installations in the form of redundant airfields, and indeed airfields generally. Again, as part of the overall mix.

    If you're familiar with MacKay (and I'm a recent disciple) then none of this will come as a surprise.

    I'll just reiterate what I've said before. I personally accept the inevitability of wind farms now that lobbyists for wind have managed to get the planning system skewed in their favour. I would add the proviso that they should be just PART of the overall mix, but that's said more in hope than expectation because of the exagerated significance placed upon their contribution by the dedicated pro-winders. Meanwhile, more consistent systems currently founder because of lack of r&d funding, the argument being that whilst "we can and will be getting more energy from wave and tidal power; [...] this is 10 years down the line" (Maria McCaffery, The Guardian, Thursday 2 June 2011. See above.) I'd love to know where she gets the "10 years" timescale from. Possibly from a realisation of the damage done to the development of those systems by the diversion of funds to the wealth-making subsidies paid to wind.

    There are numerous potential energy sources out there which deserve further research. The link posted by Cwatters is worth a listen: http://www.evworld.com/evworld_audio/dennis_bushnell_part1.mp3 (The link is to an AUDIO presentation. The detailed explanation of LENR starts at 7.30 minutes.)
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