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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
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    • CommentAuthorhowdytom
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2007
    It would seem that there's lots of talk about super insulated air tight passive housing, I assume they still use fridges/freezers(source of heat) to store perishable foods, why don't they have cellar/larder/cold stores ?

    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2007
    Because they are too warm indoors and the design prohibits cold bridges that would happen in the case of a larder ( uninsulated to out doors

    Cellars are uncommon I intend to have one in my new house but that too will be within the thermal envelope.

    A shed out building or garage could be used?
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2007
    You can create a cold larder (north facing, sunless, perhaps half-buried in the earth bank behind) outside the envelope, with insulated internal door. Fridge/freezer cd live in there, if its back (radiator, compressor etc) could be sealed into a fresh air box ventilated to outside, or the fresh air box cd be part of the HRV's air intake so the fridge's electrical heat could help to warm the incoming air. Then the other 5 faces of the fridge wd help keep the larder nice and cold.
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2007
    It was pretty common in the 18th century and earlier for larders to be sited on the north-east corner of the house with small unglazed windows with fly screens and thick walls. I visited a 17th century house recently that actually had a freshwater spring in the larder, keeping the room particularly cool.
    • CommentAuthorRachel
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2007
    I have a pantry on the north face of my straw bale house. I have very a large stone inside it which I keep milk and cheese on. Food lasts well in there.
    • CommentAuthorhowdytom
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2007
    So why arn't they part of a greenbuild spec, especially Passive house ?

    Don't fridges and freezers provide useful internal heat gains...?

    Also wouldn't you need and airlock lobby to the (colder) pantry (perhaps off the main lobby), however doesn't this make meal preparation a bit of a backwards-and-forwards-doors-opening-and-closing-sort-of-affair...?

    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2007
    Fridges and freezers provide most internal heat gains in warm weather and less in cold weather - not exactly ideal for heating your house.

    Our freezer is in an unheated outhouse.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2007
    But then the freezer is working unnecessarily hard in the summer and in the winter you are wasting the heat it produces.
    • CommentAuthorhowdytom
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2007
    Sorry tony,
    first you would need to know the construction of biff's outhouse before passing judgement !.
    in winter the hot side should be inside the house.... in summer ?. but the cold side should always be in the coolest available room, outhouse, even cellar. Perhaps the hot side should preheat the hot-water supply or could we do without them altogether. Having built a house that requires little energy to heat/cool it, is the first step, next we need to rationalise all the other sources of wasted energy.
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2007
    Thankyou, Tom. My freezer is in a massively built brick barn with no windows and a lot of ventilation. It is in the summertime coolest spot we have. In the winter the heat is not entirely wasted since it allows our fruit and vegetable store to remain frost-free.
    To be honest wasn't actually thinking of using the fridge to heat he house on its own, just a bit of useful gain. Compared with the 'going-in-and-out-to-the-barn-in-winter' method would of thought that an efficient fridge might edge it....?

    However.. I've not actually tried to source an A++ or "topten.ch" fridge..? Perhaps the 'going-in-and-out-to-the-barn-in-winter' method might have cost advantages...

    • CommentAuthorhoya105
    • CommentTimeOct 19th 2007
    we have put a north-facing larder on our wooden house, then picked up some lovely welsh slate when on holiday, to make the shelves, put a screened (no rats!) hole in the floor, and made zinc-panelled doors for it. It stays beautifully cool summer and winter and i keep almost all foodstuffs in it!
    • CommentAuthorhowdytom
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2007
    hoya 105,
    More details please, walls, roof etc are the doors thick insulation
    • CommentAuthorOliver
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2007
    your design sounds interesting.
    Any chance of some hpotos of the floor and the zinc doors?
    great idea!
    • CommentAuthorhowdytom
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2007
    Has hoya 105 disappeared ?
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