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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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  1.  
    Maybe best to define what you want from your investment: low risk / high return / long-term /short-term / tax efficient / hedge against fuel prices/ UK / international / etc

    There will be something green to suit any of those, but not all of them at once!

    And don't take investment advice from internet postings, especially not this one....
  2.  
    Also, it seems to me that many more investments are being sold as "green" than actually could be. At the moment there is little to stop consumers from being greenwashed, although CMA are consulting on bringing in regulation.

    So maybe don't believe any claims that your money will be used for green purposes, until you've checked out the evidence yourself!

    Looking at some of the platforms that were mentioned, there seem to be factory farms looking for funding for deeper industrialisation, and asking the public for green funding for it.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeSep 28th 2021
     
    What defines green? Living in a cold first world country theres likely nothing we do that doesnt have a significant environmental impact.

    Who decides at what point an activity becomes green?
    • CommentAuthorGarethC
    • CommentTimeSep 28th 2021
     
    Another one to add to Abundance etc: https://energy4all.co.uk/ I think they've got an open offer to help fund a hydro scheme in Scotland, but I also think there's a strong risk that it won't be commissioned in time to benefit from subsidies, so the returns may not be great.

    Also Ripple Energy has probably been mentioned here somewhere (a rather complicated way to part own a wind turbine).

    My own personal thinking (not investment advice etc etc) is that contributing one's savings to accelerate the build out of renewable energy generation, via schemes such as these, is one of the best things you can do. Any additional funds to make the transition to renewables that bit faster is a good thing. The returns may or may not be great, but there will at least be some return (although there will also be risk).

    I'd actually prefer to find similar schemes that accelerated solar and wind build out in, for example, the US, Germany and maybe even Poland, as they still burn a lot more coal, and even lignite, so the environmental benefit of more renewables is greater than in the UK, where we've nearly killed the coal devil. If anyone knows of any please let me know (not that I've got any savings to contribute right now right enough...)
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 28th 2021
     
    Posted By: philedgeWhat defines green?
    According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentally_friendly ISO 14020 and ISO 14024 do :) Closer to the meat of this forum there's also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_building of course.

    Living in a cold first world country theres likely nothing we do that doesnt have a significant environmental impact.
    I don't see there's much relevance of the temperature of a country or its economic development to how much environmental impact things have. I can make bad choices everywhere, or somewhat better ones.

    Who decides at what point an activity becomes green?

    Well that goes back to the answers to the first question, or for a different viewpoint there's things like https://www.era-environmental.com/blog/what-it-means-to-be-green :devil:
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 28th 2021
     
    Posted By: GarethCAlso Ripple Energy has probably been mentioned here somewhere (a rather complicated way to part own a wind turbine).

    That would be me. I subscribed. I really don't know how it will work out as an investment (as you say, it is complicated) but I hope it was a reasonable choice. I'll let you know in a few years.
    • CommentAuthorCliff Pope
    • CommentTimeSep 28th 2021
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: djh</cite>I don't see there's much relevance of the temperature of a country or its economic development to how much environmental impact things have. I can make bad choices everywhere, or somewhat better ones</blockquote>

    It's not things, it's people.
    It's surely well known that pollution and global warming are mostly caused by rich western nations?
    I don't think there is any green investment a westerner can make - camel, eye of needle, kingdom of heaven? :)
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 28th 2021
     
    Posted By: Cliff PopeIt's surely well known that pollution and global warming are mostly caused by rich western nations?

    I think everybody would agree that historically western countries have caused most pollution and global warming. I think nowadays you have to look rather further east to a developing country that has tropical parts as well as cold bits.

    https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/each-countrys-share-co2-emissions

    I don't think there is any green investment a westerner can make - camel, eye of needle, kingdom of heaven? :)

    I don't understand what you mean here. Any person who invested in a working device that extracted CO2 from the atmosphere would be making the same contribution to solving climate change. It makes no difference who they are, or where they live. Pretty much the same goes for investing in solar panels or wind turbines, or in solar-powered cookers, or buying bits of jungle in remote tropical places and gifting it to responsible locals. Or even planting a tree. Sure some types of trees are better than others and trees planted in some places are worth more than others but it doesn't matter where the person that plants it lives.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeSep 29th 2021
     
    Posted By: djh
    I think everybody would agree that historically western countries have caused most pollution and global warming. I think nowadays you have to look rather further east to a developing country that has tropical parts as well as cold bits.

    https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/each-countrys-share-co2-emissions


    But much, if not the majority, of the far eastern emmissions are attributable to first world consumption. Very few of emissions calculations I see include those associated with manufacture and transport of a countries imports
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeSep 29th 2021
     
    Posted By: djh
    I don't understand what you mean here. Any person who invested in a working device that extracted CO2 from the atmosphere would be making the same contribution to solving climate change. It makes no difference who they are, or where they live. Pretty much the same goes for investing in solar panels or wind turbines, or in solar-powered cookers, or buying bits of jungle in remote tropical places and gifting it to responsible locals. Or even planting a tree. Sure some types of trees are better than others and trees planted in some places are worth more than others but it doesn't matter where the person that plants it lives.


    A comment was made seemingly questioning the green claims around farm industrialisation intended to reduce emissions in the future. That farm concept is no different to building wind turbines or solar panels where theres embodied construction emissions that should be offset by the 'investment' followed by a beneficial period of net reduced emissions. Neither the farm industrialisation, the wind turbine or solar panels are environmentally impact free and in my veiw are not green, but they are greener than lots of other things you could invest in.

    Planting trees has next to zero embodied emissions and gives nigh on 100% benefit from day one so not really comparable to constructed activities. Strangely, investing in farm industrialisation, wind turbines and solar panels gives financial return(usually!) but investing in tree planting returns next to nothing, unless cut down and processed. Maybe the new land payments scheme will change that.

    In my veiw there is a massive difference in where you carry out most activities. In a cold first world country all the workers and businesses need/want/demand comprehensive shelter, heating, extensive clothing, reliable on demand utilities, education, healthcare, security, on demand and unlimited energy of choice, entertainment, transport, holidays etc etc etc. All with a very large environmental impact

    In a warm third world country youll likely not need or get much of the above so the environmental impact of doing anything is much lower than a cold first world location, such as the UK. Hence my earlier comment that along with farm industrialisation theres very little activity you can do and invest in, in the UK that doesnt have a significant environmental impact.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 29th 2021
     
    Ah, you're talking about where investments are invested rather than who makes them or where the money comes from?! That's completely different then.

    But any activity involves the expenditure of energy, which ends up as heat. So basically we should all shoot ourselves.

    The very essence of investment is that you make a contribution now and see the reward later. The same is true of climate-change reversing investments.

    Posted By: philedgeA comment was made seemingly questioning the green claims around farm industrialisation intended to reduce emissions in the future.

    Quoting the comment would have been useful as a way of indicating what on earth you had in mind :devil:
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeSep 29th 2021
     
    I would not go looking for green investment or any other in China or Asia the moment unless you like a gamble. Things not looking good over there.
    Quote from DT business pages 20/9
    "The real estate giant Evergrande is in financial difficulties and warns the global public of “unprecedented problems”. A chain reaction could commence after the Evergrande real estate company has debts of $300 billion US dollars."
    Put into the melting pot China on short time restricting manufacturing as only got 18 days of coal for power stations and at $300 per Mt close to 6x what it was about a month ago. Overcapacity in EV's got more cars than they can sell factories making them closing down.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/27/business/economy/china-electricity.html
    Not good don't want another Lemans type crisis.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 29th 2021
     
    I don't believe there's any danger of another 'Lemans type crisis'. Evergrande is certainly in trouble but I don't think anybody would consider investing in that as a green investment. China mines the vast majority of the coal it burns itself, so they can control the price if they want; the fact they aren't suggesting it indicates they're not that worried, perhaps. China believes it has too many electric car manufacturing companies and wants them to consolidate. Their policies and sales figures indicate sales growth is strong, however; I don't see signs of unsold stock.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeSep 30th 2021
     
    Posted By: djhChina mines the vast majority of the coal it burns itself,

    They were heavily reliant on Australia for coal but they have fallen out over Australian request for greater openness over the Covid issue and stopped Australian coal imports (as well as putting huge tariff on wine)and turned elsewhere India USA and others for supply. China was a huge importer of Australian coal. Prices since have climbed. From what has been reported, China is struggling financially. Might be that news is being exaggerated I am repeating what is out there in the world press. I sincerely hope thing right themselves but the word entropy comes to mind.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 30th 2021 edited
     
    Posted By: revor
    Posted By: djhChina mines the vast majority of the coal it burns itself,

    They were heavily reliant on Australia for coal but they have fallen out over Australian request for greater openness over the Covid issue and stopped Australian coal imports (as well as putting huge tariff on wine)and turned elsewhere India USA and others for supply. China was a huge importer of Australian coal. Prices since have climbed. From what has been reported, China is struggling financially. Might be that news is being exaggerated I am repeating what is out there in the world press. I sincerely hope thing right themselves but the word entropy comes to mind.

    China used to buy coal from Australia to make steel, not to burn for power. They have now stopped that as part of their trade dispute. Apparently large-scale solar is now cheaper to than coal for new plants.

    https://qz.com/2051594/chinas-boycott-of-australian-coal-has-been-good-for-india/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China
    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/imports-of-coal
    • CommentAuthorBeau
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2021
     
    Thanks for the various options thrown up on here. It's given me plenty of food for thought
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