Green Building Forum - Wind farm noise in court

Wind farm noise in court

CWatters — Fri, 25 May 2012 13:17:32 +0100

If I remember correctly Mike Sigwood of MAS has already published a paper showing how the Den Brook AM condition can be applied...by actually applying it to real world wind farm noise data! I do hope the locals have the funds to defend the planning condition.

Wind farm noise in court

CWatters — Mon, 28 May 2012 23:37:08 +0100

House within few hundred meters of wind farm considered uninhabitable...

http://eplanning.east-ayrshire.gov.uk/online/caseFile.do?category=application&caseNo=11%2F0794%2FPP

EAST AYRSHIRE COUNCIL
NORTHERN LOCAL PLANNING COMMITTEE: 02 MARCH 2012
11/0794/PP: DEMOLITION OF FARM BUILDINGS AT: CROILBURN FARM BY WATERSIDE, EAST AYRSHIRE
BY: SCOTTISH POWER RENEWABLES
Report by Head of Planning and Economic Development

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY SHEET
3.3 Whilst it is acknowledged that the current planning application proposes the demolition of the buildings at Croilburn, it is also relevant that the Scottish Governmentâ€™s decision to grant consent for a major wind farm development at this location would inevitably result in the blighting of the property at Croilburn. The application site is situated within a few hundred metres of large size and scale wind turbines, the operation of which effectively render the property uninhabitable.

Wind farm noise in court

CWatters — Mon, 28 May 2012 23:47:28 +0100

and another one..

http://eplanning.east-ayrshire.gov.uk/online/caseFile.do?category=application&caseNo=11%2F0782%2FPP

http://eplanning.east-ayrshire.gov.uk/online/files/D41D0F25C34DF6008BF6DA897B86F35C/pdf/document-121031.pdf

Turbine 210 within 868 meters
Turbine 211 within 873 meters
Turbine 212 within 869 meters
Turbine 214 within 652 meters

snip

....the property at High Overmuir has been rendered uninhabitable and has consequently been vacant for a long time period. The wind farm operation and close proximity of wind turbines has in effect, blighted the property at High Overmuir for both residential and for agricultural use.

Wind farm noise in court

windy lamb — Tue, 29 May 2012 09:02:37 +0100

Can see how the turbines could blight a property for residential use and render in uninhabitable but fail to see how it could do that for agricultural use - can't imagine the sheep give a sh...
So do these wind farms buy these blighted homes from the owners or just pick them up for pennies at an auction. Good way of buying land cheap - rent it for a wind farm then buy it for peanuts when the owner goes mad! Now there's a business plan.

Wind farm noise in court

ted — Thu, 31 May 2012 10:09:31 +0100

Anyone like to hazard a guess as to the level of accuracy sound meters, approved to the highest international standard, are? Or the level of accuracy of the calibration devices that are used to set those meters and approved to the same international standard?

Don't google it first please - I'd really like to know what people's off-the-cuff assumptions might be.

Level of accuracy as described by plus or minus x.x dB.

Wind farm noise in court

SteamyTea — Thu, 31 May 2012 10:27:14 +0100

2 Standard Deviations would be normal (95%) for accuracy. 3 for a calibration.
Precision is a different matter and would hope for 3 SD, but suspect it is less than 1. 4 for calibration

Then there is the sampling error, they probably junk/discount 5% on site, but when testing down to 0.1% as they can control the environment.

Wind farm noise in court

djh — Thu, 31 May 2012 13:46:45 +0100

Posted By: tedDon't google it first please - I'd really like to know what people's off-the-cuff assumptions might be.

Level of accuracy as described by plus or minus x.x dB.

OK. I'll guess at 0.001 dB. Now I'll google it!

Wind farm noise in court

JSHarris — Thu, 31 May 2012 16:59:48 +0100

I've some experience with aircraft noise monitoring (all UK microlight aircraft have to be noise tested by the CAA as part of approval, and I designed one years ago). I never saw the calibration certificate for the noise measurement system the CAA used, but did spend time with the chap whilst he set up the mics, recording system etc and made lots of background noise runs before the tests.

I very much doubt that even the best weighted environmental noise measurement system is better than +/- 0.5 dB, and know for certain that they never quote to a precision of better than 1dB. As the scale is logarithmic (a 3dB increase is a doubling in perceived sound level) and as it's frequency weighted (to represent the approximate response of the human ear, I believe), I would be surprised if a measurement accuracy of better than 1dB is realistically achievable in practice. This makes sense, as 1dB is about the smallest step change in sound level that we can just about discern, I believe.

Wind farm noise in court

windy lamb — Thu, 31 May 2012 17:27:27 +0100

The Welsh Ass. Government petitions committee, following those submissions about wind farm noise, have recommended a minimum separation distance from a turbine (size? not sure) to a dwelling to be 500m. Not sure this will make much actual difference because I think that the wind farm developers use this distance as a minimum anyway. So that's achieved a lot then.

JSH- I think that a 3dB(A) increase in sound is the smallest step change that we can discern and that a 6dB(A) increase is perceived as doubling the loudness. You are right about the (A) weighting being representing the approximate response of the human ear - that human ear being US soldiers. So it might be a bit different for you if you're a 50 something woman! Not you personally JH.

Wind farm noise in court

ted — Thu, 31 May 2012 18:06:21 +0100

Windy, the petitions committee are recommending a 1500m set-back, subject to conditions.

Wind farm noise in court

Joiner — Thu, 31 May 2012 18:20:02 +0100

If that 1500m separation distance was written into the Welsh planning guidance, how applicable could it be made to the situation in England, or indeed in the UK as a whole? Do Welsh precedents carry any weight in English planning law?

Wind farm noise in court

JSHarris — Thu, 31 May 2012 18:44:53 +0100

Posted By: windy lamb
JSH- I think that a 3dB(A) increase in sound is the smallest step change that we can discern and that a 6dB(A) increase is perceived as doubling the loudness. You are right about the (A) weighting being representing the approximate response of the human ear - that human ear being US soldiers. So it might be a bit different for you if you're a 50 something woman! Not you personally JH.

I've just checked, to see if my memory was playing up. According to this source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel
"A change in power ratio by a factor of two is approximately a 3 dB change"

According to the book I won as a science prize at school in 1964 ("The Schoolboys Science Pocket Book" 1960, bottom of page 102):
"...it is said that 1dB is the smallest increase in loudness which can be detected by the human ear"

The same useful little book says, at the bottom of page 103;
"Following the same law, an increase of loudness of 100% (that is, the loudness is doubled) means an increase of only 3dB; and each doubling means a further increase of only 3dB"

Wind farm noise in court

Joiner — Thu, 31 May 2012 20:14:52 +0100

Swot.

Wind farm noise in court

JSHarris — Thu, 31 May 2012 21:10:30 +0100

Posted By: JoinerSwot.

This was at junior school. Apparently the headmaster (a welshman called Mr W B Jones) had to invent a science prize, as they didn't actually teach science at junior school (I was 11 when I won this, BTW). Apparently everyone who knew me was sure I was going to be a scientist (even though I wasn't) when I was only 8 or 9 years old.

Wind farm noise in court

windy lamb — Thu, 31 May 2012 21:32:25 +0100

Sorry about the misinformation, getting all my figures wrong today; 1500m not 500, 1 not 3, 3 not 6. I should pay more attention - it must be that noisy turbine outside!

Wind farm noise in court

Joiner — Thu, 31 May 2012 21:41:34 +0100

Wind farm noise in court

CWatters — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 07:36:47 +0100

Planners should take a "precautionary approach" to the health effects of wind farms says Australia NHMRC...

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/caution-backed-on-wind-turbine-health-link/story-e6frg8y6-1226375601690

Selected extracts..

"A NATIONAL Health and Medical Research Council recommendation for caution when considering wind-farm developments was appropriate pending a thorough investigation of possible adverse effects of turbines on residents, the chairman of a NHMRC review has said. "

"There is currently no published scientific evidence to positively link wind turbines with adverse health effects," it says.

"While there is currently no evidence linking these phenomena with adverse health effects, the evidence is limited. Therefore it is recommended that relevant authorities take a precautionary approach and continue to monitor research outcomes."

"The Australian reported on Monday that Queensland Health's director of environmental health, David Sellars, recommended a "precautionary approach" be taken to approval of the proposed $500 million Mount Emerald wind farm near Walkamin on the Atherton Tablelands. "Queensland Health recommended wind-farm planning applications be carefully considered, given there is a growing body of evidence to suggest there may be adverse health effects associated with the noise generated by wind farms," Mr Sellers said in a letter to the Tablelands Regional Council"

Wind farm noise in court

SteamyTea — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 07:48:32 +0100

There seems to be a lot of reports about the effects (or is it affects) of noise from windfarms, are there any independent ones that show either no effect or draw no conclusion?

Wind farm noise in court

CWatters — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 08:01:24 +0100

Anyone know what this story is about? Just H&S over blown or ??

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/98843-wind-turbine-operations-suspended-at-16-schools-over-safety-fears/

Wind turbine operations suspended at 16 schools over safety fears

Wind turbine operations have been suspended at 16 schools across the Highlands after parents raised concerns over safety.

Highland Council says the turbines have been stopped as a "precautionary measure" while a review is carried out.

The local authority commissioned an evaluation of wind turbine installation at their schools, after concerns were raised by some parents and councillors.

Following the initial report from the Building Research Establishment (BRE), the decision was made to temporarily suspend operations at all 16 schools.

The turbines are located at three secondary schools and 13 primary schools across the Highland region.

Steven Barron, housing and property director, said: "There has been a great deal of interest and some concern about the planning and installation of wind turbines on school sites.

"Following representations from elected members and the public, the council commenced a review of the risk assessment process and the installations of wind turbines at council schools.

"Based on initial feedback from BRE and taking account of the councilâ€™s own enhanced risk assessment tool, the decision has been taken to suspend operation of the turbines which are sited in or adjacent to school sites.

"This is a precautionary measure which will allow time for proper consideration of the findings of the BRE reports when we receive them over the next few weeks.

Wind farm noise in court

CWatters — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 08:14:28 +0100

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120511/NEWS/205110318/-1/NEWS

In January, a report on the health effects of wind turbine, commissioned by the Massachusetts Department of Environmental Protection, was issued by an independent panel of scientific experts.

The report concluded that "the weight of evidence suggests no association between noise from wind turbines and measures of psychological distress or mental health problems."

The report also concluded "it is possible that noise from some wind turbines can cause sleep disruption," which can in turn "adversely affect mood (and) cognitive functioning."

Wind farm noise in court

Joiner — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 08:53:14 +0100

There is no such thing as climate change either, and if there is then it certainly isn't caused by human activity.

Wind farm noise in court

renewablejohn — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 09:16:16 +0100

Does tower height seriously affect noise levels. Only reason for asking is the 250kw turbine I want to use comes on a standard 30 mtr pole. We want to blend in with the National grid towers so propose to use a lattice tower which is a standard 36 mtr high. For the extra 6 mtrs the consultants are wanting an additional Â£2500 fee for planning surely it does not make that amount of difference.

Wind farm noise in court

DamonHD — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 09:42:47 +0100

An extra 20% height may significantly increase your generation, which may be worth the money anyway...

Rgds

Damon

Wind farm noise in court

JSHarris — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 09:44:49 +0100

If anything I would suggest that raising the turbines 6 metres would reduce any ground noise levels. The primary noise issue is from the way that the blade tip vortices interact with the surrounding terrain, so spacing the tips 6 metres further away would seem to be a good thing.

The extra 2.5k seems OTT, to me, and maybe just reflects that they don't really want the hassle of re-doing some fairly simple model re-runs (if they even go as far as doing that).

Wind farm noise in court

Peter_in_Hungary — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 09:47:30 +0100

Posted By: renewablejohnFor the extra 6 mtrs the consultants are wanting an additional Â£2500 fee for planning surely it does not make that amount of difference.

If the turbine does not have a manufactures option for the 36 mtr tower then all the calcs. will probably have to be done to prove the tower will take the load. The standard option should have all the necessary data with the unit - step away from the manufacture's standard and the cash registers will start to ring in the planning office.

Wind farm noise in court

renewablejohn — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 09:48:32 +0100

Posted By: DamonHDAn extra 20% height may significantly increase your generation, which may be worth the money anyway...

Rgds

Damon

I have never understood why small turbines in the UK are put on such short poles in the US turbine height has always been the dominate factor.

Wind farm noise in court

renewablejohn — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 09:55:05 +0100

Posted By: Peter_in_Hungary
Posted By: renewablejohnFor the extra 6 mtrs the consultants are wanting an additional Â£2500 fee for planning surely it does not make that amount of difference.

If the turbine does not have a manufactures option for the 36 mtr tower then all the calcs. will probably have to be done to prove the tower will take the load. The standard option should have all the necessary data with the unit - step away from the manufacture's standard and the cash registers will start to ring in the planning office.

Its a standard manufacturers option which they use on island locations and is used for turbine erection without the need of a crane

Wind farm noise in court

djh — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 14:13:11 +0100

Posted By: tedAnyone like to hazard a guess as to the level of accuracy sound meters, approved to the highest international standard, are? Or the level of accuracy of the calibration devices that are used to set those meters and approved to the same international standard?

Don't google it first please - I'd really like to know what people's off-the-cuff assumptions might be.

Level of accuracy as described by plus or minus x.x dB.

Come on then, Ted! Let the cat out of the bag. Enquiring minds want to know. Or at least whisper the answer to those of us who have posted a guess.

Wind farm noise in court

CWatters — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 14:17:56 +0100

For the extra 6 mtrs the consultants are wanting an additional Â£2500 fee for planning surely it does not make that amount of difference.

Your council has some freedom specify the level of detail that has to be included in the EIA. It's quite possible this is based on the height of the turbine. So the extra cost might not be down to the consultant you have hired, he might just be doing what the planners tell him.

Wind farm noise in court

windy lamb — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 14:34:54 +0100

At the risk of being wrong again - aren't those wind turbines on school fields in Scotland Provens? This seems to be just a H&S review to placate the parents who are paranoid about blades flying off. These reviews are nothing new, a spate of them were undertaken when a seagull was chopped up by a school turbine- upsetting for the little darlings, apparently (the dead Seagull not the review!).

Always struck me as an appalling waste of the education budget to buy an expensive wind turbine for a school. OK so you might get your money back and have future earnings but it's high risk and if you bought a Proven 35 - like so many of them, you' ll not be too happy. Look at how many P35s the Environment Agency bought (with tax payers money) and sited them in the most inappropriate locations. As I've said before, wind turbines are fine in the right location - put them in the "wrong" place and it does no-one any favours.