Sat, 30 May 2026 14:53:53 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152650#Comment_152650 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152650#Comment_152650 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 13:17:23 +0100 SteamyTea https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152653#Comment_152653 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152653#Comment_152653 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 13:29:22 +0100 windy lamb This case also clearly demonstrates that one rule is applied to an individual turbine owner but another is applied to wind farm companies (easy target?). How can those companies argue that because they comply with the planning noise controls/conditions (based on ETSU) that a nuisance cannot be being caused? If that was the case then the Local Authority could not have served a notice on this individual with his £20 turbine.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152655#Comment_152655 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152655#Comment_152655 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 13:42:11 +0100 windy lamb If the owners of this turbine appeal above the magistrates court then at least a legal precedent will be set. Perhaps they should phone RES and ask for a donation! Or perhaps RES would be more than happy to buy their turbine from them - thus stopping an unfavourable precedent.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152659#Comment_152659 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152659#Comment_152659 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:49:06 +0100 jms452
Some standarisation that would reduce the effort/pain/expense/uncertainty in setting up a windfarm...

Possible locations could then be cross referenced with infrastructure/windspeed to make sure that the 'best' locations are developed rather than simply where the developer has some land.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152661#Comment_152661 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152661#Comment_152661 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:01:53 +0100 Joiner
That's the whole issue with ETSU, it acknowledges that noise will occur. The scoping brief for the local scheme here actually states that noise may occur and identifies the properties most at risk from it, but then proposes that, in the event of such noise proving a nuisance, they will take steps to mitigate it. They don't, of course, say how.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152666#Comment_152666 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152666#Comment_152666 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:31:48 +0100 jms452
This might be because we view roads as 'essential' but not renewables.

Agree nuisance is totally subjective but a easy (cautious) metric that says a certain distance from a certain turbine is not grounds for nuisance would give improved certainty to developers.

The main result of the running battle is hacking people (on both sides) off and making renewables more expensive.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152669#Comment_152669 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152669#Comment_152669 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:40:39 +0100 gustyturbine Bang on with the last comment,
Gusty.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152674#Comment_152674 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152674#Comment_152674 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 16:13:49 +0100 windy lamb
Best noise attenuation technique is to increase the distance from noise source to receptor. A turbine is a point noise source on a long pole and so there is no attenuation from the ground and so you can do one of two things. 1. reduce noise at source or, 2. Increase distance (noise level halved with doubling of distance). You can only do a bit of No.1 (eg make the gearbox and generator quieter but most of the noise will be from the blades and reducing that reduces the efficiency so is very limited). No.2 IS THE ONLY OPTION. It's quite straightforward once the noise performance of a given turbine has been measured, you just need to establish at what level will noise nuisance occur. THIS IS WHAT BS:4142 DOES AND HAS BEEN DOING FOR 20 YEARS. So why don't we adopt that for wind farms? Because it would show that wind farms would have to be considerable distances from dwellings and that would greatly reduce the availability of sites.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152675#Comment_152675 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152675#Comment_152675 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 16:20:18 +0100 SteamyTea Posted By: windy lambBecause it would show that wind farms would have to be considerable distances from dwellings and that would greatly reduce the availability of sites.
It would also suggest that they go into places with other restrictions.

As for number 1
Is there much research going on as to how much performance would be lost for every decibel reduction in turbine noise?
Or is it an 'English' problem and as we don't have an indigenous industry it is up to us to waste our time with the land based stuff.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152679#Comment_152679 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152679#Comment_152679 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:17:28 +0100 Joiner ]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152681#Comment_152681 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152681#Comment_152681 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:39:46 +0100 windy lamb
Noise nuisance; if you were brought up in Rio, Hong Kong, Porto Prince, Dehli, etc, your perception of noise nuisance will be very different from someone brought up in England or the rest of the UK. That doesn't mean either is wrong, just different for different circumstances. The UK has well established legal concepts for nuisance whether in common law or in statute - why relax the controls just because other places don't have them? I'm sure the Somali planning laws aren't as tight as ours but should we relax ours to their standards?

Noise and blade efficiency - don't really know about this one but there's plenty of stuff on acoustic performance of aeroplane propellers which have not only become much quieter but also much more efficient. I'm equally sure the knowledge is available for turbines but why bother if you can put a cheaper noisy turbine up anyway. Small turbines have employed blade design to reduce noise, look at the Aircon 10 kW and compare that to an Evoco 10kW. One has a blade designed to reduce noise and it's not hard to see which one it is.

As for NIMBY's; if there was an Olympic medal for that team GB would win gold every time!]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152683#Comment_152683 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152683#Comment_152683 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 18:37:57 +0100 Joiner
"I'm all for the things BECAUSE they're Not In My Back Yard."

And the designers of large turbines have improved their designs over the years, but as each turbine will behave differently in different landscapes (not such a big factor with the smaller machines, I believe) not all contingencies/variables can be allowed for. Add to that the fact that turbines are getting so much bigger and you can see where the problem lies.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152690#Comment_152690 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152690#Comment_152690 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 21:06:43 +0100 jms452 Posted By: windy lamb
Oh and you get financial compensation if they build an new road near you!


I think that this is the crux of it - when you hear claims that a 100m turbine 500m from a house won't effect the house price it is clearly daft - there must be a quid pro quo.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152699#Comment_152699 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152699#Comment_152699 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 23:34:21 +0100 CWatters Posted By: jms452We seem to manage to build new roads without the same level of angst and they can often be heard from 1000s of homes.

When the A14 was built in Huntingdon locals were offered free double glazing. Now a wind farm is being proposed that the applicant says could be louder than background noise levels. No offer of double glazing from them. Perhaps they know that the low frequencies go right through it :-)

It's not just volume it's the very repetitive nature that seems to be the problem. Bit like listening to the neighbours hifi going thump thump thump.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152700#Comment_152700 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152700#Comment_152700 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 23:37:51 +0100 CWatters http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/9418617/Wind-farms-do-bring-down-property-values.html

Wind farms can bring down property prices, government officials have accepted after downgrading the official valuation of several homes close to turbines.

The decisions by the Valuation Office Agency (VOA) to move certain houses close to wind farms into lower council tax bands are the first official recognition that the turbines can lower the value of nearby homes.

Although property experts have long acknowledged the harmful effect of wind farms on property prices, the association has until now been dismissed by the wind industry as conjecture.

In one recent case a couple saw the value of their home 650 yards from the Fullabrook wind farm near Braunton, Devon, fall from £400,000 to £300,000 according to a local agent's estimate.

Continues..]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152702#Comment_152702 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152702#Comment_152702 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 06:38:59 +0100 SteamyTea Could have been cheaper that the Council fighting in courts.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152704#Comment_152704 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152704#Comment_152704 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 07:29:36 +0100 Joiner
We all know how Council Tax banding was achieved.

And house prices have fallen by 25% nationally, have they?

"Headline figures from Land Registry's May House Price Index show that London experienced the highest annual increase in average property value with a movement of 7.7 per cent. Yorkshire & The Humber experienced the greatest annual price fall of 3.9 per cent."

( http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/public/house-prices-and-sales )]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152709#Comment_152709 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152709#Comment_152709 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 08:38:15 +0100 SteamyTea I coudl say that my house is worth X and constantly reduce it to Y until it sells, then claim, with no evidence that the reason I had to sell at a lower price was because, bad area, the economy, I had to sell, I felt generous, the area is going down hill, the estate agent knew nothing etc. I could also claim that I can see a windturbine, and a mine pump house, that I am in a heritage area and it has no development opportunities.
Truth is that some parts may be true, but unpicking it all is very hard. And my initial asking price of X was unrealistic.

The truer gauge of house price value is what those people who claim they have been blighted will sell for.
If I turned up with £300,000 would they hand over the deeds? Maybe that should be stipulated in the rate reduction.

Here is a report that draws no conclusion (I think). http://www.rics.org/site/scripts/faq_info.aspx?faqID=2819
I am sure for every report that claims a loss, there are others than claim no loss. I think the reason for that is because it is the owners perception and not the turbines themselves. Would a first time buyer at the other end of the market (the sub £100k sector) be so vocal and demanding? Are there any reports of this sector getting a discount?

Don't get me wrong, I am not claiming that turbines are silent and should be fitted anywhere and they will all work perfectly all the time and everyone will like the look of them, but if they really are a blight, they should be affecting everyone equally, and that does not seem to be the case, even allowing for dodgy statistical reviews.

And will the 10% reduction in turbine subsidies and the link to gas prices make any difference to the numbers fitted?]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152710#Comment_152710 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152710#Comment_152710 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 08:46:07 +0100 CWatters Posted By: SteamyTeaSo that would be in line with general house price falls. But the Council tax was set by an Estate Agent drive by in the early 1990's and has no bearing on today's, or 2007, prices.
Could have been cheaper that the Council fighting in courts.

The valuation office is an independant legal body nothing to do with the council.

Read up on how council tax values are assessed. In England the valuation office work out what a property would have been worth on 1 April 1991 even if the house and wind farm hadn't been built then.

Don't forget this isn't the first time. Not so long ago a couple selling a house were taken to court for failing to tell a buyer that a wind farm was going to be built nearby. They were also ordered to repay 25% of the purchase price. I reckon they got a good deal, at least they sold their house.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152711#Comment_152711 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152711#Comment_152711 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:00:22 +0100 SteamyTea
Was that couple ordered to pay a 25% reduction because it was a wind farm or because they withheld information? It could have been an airport being built and not mentioned, and I suspect that the solicitor had to claim on their PI for that one.

One of the problems is that we only get the headlines and not the complicated legal arguments that went on.

So anyone going to contact all the people and offer them the new valuation of their properties and see what the response is?

It would also be a bit rich if the people asking for compensation for perceived monetary devaluation also claimed that 'it is all about the money' when a farmer rents his land out to a wind farm developer/operator.

I shall say it again, I am not saying that turbines are silent and should be fitted anywhere and they will all work perfectly all the time and everyone will like the look of them, but if they really are a blight, they should be affecting everyone equally, and that does not seem to be the case, even allowing for dodgy statistical reviews.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152712#Comment_152712 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152712#Comment_152712 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:01:36 +0100 Joiner

"However, a recent landmark case has shown evidence that house prices are affected by the close proximity of wind turbines. A council tax appeal ruled that Jane Davis will get a discount on her council tax because her home has lost value as a result of a turbine. This ruling could be regarded as an official admission that wind farms have a negative effect on prices. [Valuation Tribunal Council tax appeal from Jane Davis (2008)]"

..."This ruling could be regarded as an official admission that wind farms have a negative effect on prices."]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152713#Comment_152713 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152713#Comment_152713 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:13:45 +0100 SteamyTea One recent landmark case in 2008, we are now in 2012 and surely everyone near a wind farm, that claiming to be affected, should be getting the same deal. Has it happened? Will it happen?

I do try and use decent resources, there seems to be very little on this subject and even less hard evidence that they affect house prices because they are a annoying sometimes.

Has Jane Davis sold her place?]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152716#Comment_152716 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152716#Comment_152716 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:19:54 +0100 Joiner Perhaps you SHOULD start talking to social scientists. ]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152717#Comment_152717 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152717#Comment_152717 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:38:22 +0100 SteamyTea I don't they think that they have moved on from 'dogs salivate when ready to eat'.

But it does open up possibilities to asking the right questions.
If I was conduction a survey about wind farm noise, I would be asking very probing question about peoples lifestyles and lifestyle expectations.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152719#Comment_152719 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152719#Comment_152719 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:05:01 +0100 Joiner
If you want any ideas about where to go to find these people, just ask Colin, or Ted, or me. ]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152720#Comment_152720 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152720#Comment_152720 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:12:28 +0100 windy lamb https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152735#Comment_152735 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152735#Comment_152735 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 14:50:08 +0100 CWatters Posted By: SteamyTeaWas that couple ordered to pay a 25% reduction because it was a wind farm or because they withheld information?

As I understand it they were required to pay damages not a "fine" for non-disclosure. A claim for damages has to be justified so I suspect the court was presented with valuations of the house based on wind farm or no wind farm by the new owner to justify their claim.

At the high court in the Davis case they speant at least two weeks discussing the claim for damages and how much could be justified.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152737#Comment_152737 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152737#Comment_152737 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 14:51:52 +0100 CWatters Posted By: SteamyTea
Has Jane Davis sold her place?

No. The title was transferred to the wind farm developer as part of the settlement.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152738#Comment_152738 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152738#Comment_152738 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 15:13:28 +0100 Joiner
Likewise, Mike Huhlme and his wife at Den Brook had lived in their property for 35 years and had also originally supported the need for wind farms. He can be seen arguing the case for renewables towards the start of the documentary 'Wind Farm Wars'. He and his wife were friends with the project manager Rachel Ruffle until she started playing silly buggers over the noise data.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152739#Comment_152739 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7563&Focus=152739#Comment_152739 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 15:22:08 +0100 SteamyTea No, and that is the point I am making about it affecting everyone equally. This is what I feel there is not enough research being done.

I would have hardly called the relationship between RES's Ruffles and Huhlme as friends, civil yes, not friendship

Does living in a place for many years weaken or strengthen a case for compensation of some sort?]]>