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Renewable Energy: Freetricity surveyor coming round on Friday

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorpetecooper
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2011 edited
     
    I have a Freetricity surveyor coming round to look at my roof (south-facing, OX14) on Friday to see if PV is a feasible option. They have deemed my end terrace roof is provisionally suitable for PV from the whizziness of Google Local, which is a nice thing to know.

    I understand there is a 25 year contract/agreement on PV installs from Freetricity. At the present time, both myself and my wife both work from home on computers, our power bill with Green Energy is ticking along at around 50-60GBP/month, with consumption at around 10-14kWh/day. I'm not signing or agreeing anything until I'm 100% sure this is the right move, and if I'm not totally happy I will politely decline their offer, so at this stage it's risk-free

    What experience have you had with Freetricity, if any? Is there anything I should know prior to the surveyor visiting on Friday? Failing that, are there any questions you'd like me to ask the surveyor? I'm a cheeky scamp on occasion, so I'm quite happy asking awkward or probing questions.
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2011
     
    Never heard of that particular company but make sure you read all the small print before signing anything. Especially any penalty clauses that may kick in if you need to remove panels to repair the roof. You also need to think what the reaction of a potential buyer may be if/when you come to sell the house before the 25 years is up.
  3.  
    So with these deals at the moment I guess at night,evening or very dark days you still pay for imported power even though you export in the day, is this correct?
    Gusty.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2011 edited
     
    I presume you pay for all usage other than when the system is generating .
    So if your out all day , not much saving there.
    Slow cookers and electricial water heating, washing machine all at noon ( or peak generation time ) seem the only way to benefit.
    I guess it'll cover day time background usage , things on standby ( these could be turned off ) more importantly Fridges, freezers, which account for a big chunk of usage if electric is not the main heat/HW source.

    I cant see there being that much saving for the home owner in a gas/oil/lpg heated home
    I believe a Which report claimed it's better , if possible, to borrow the money to install a PV system, than go with the free install deals , if saving energy and maximisation of financial returns are the goals

    anyone got a guesstimate of realistic financial saving from these schemes for a 3kWp system?
    average family usage.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2011
     
    Posted By: tedYou also need to think what the reaction of a potential buyer may be if/when you come to sell the house before the 25 years is up.

    Check with their lender as well, many won't give a mortgage to a property with a leased roof.
    • CommentAuthorpetecooper
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2011
     
    Thanks, everyone.

    My current thinking right now is that I'm not convinced of the long-term impact. I don't intend on living here for 25 years, and - frankly - I've got power usage down to such a low level for what we do that the cash saving isn't a huge deal. Plus, anything that means insurance or mortgage companies can wriggle of things and cover their behinds doesn't really fill me with glee.

    If there's anything notable in the survey on Friday, I will report back.
    • CommentAuthorbillt
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2011
     
    Posted By: SteamyTea
    Check with their lender as well, many won't give a mortgage to a property with a leased roof.


    Lenders may not want to lend on an encumbered property, but it's much too early to be able to say "many won't".

    Can you give an example of a property that has been refused a mortgage because it has had its roof leased out?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2011 edited
     
    No I can't, but I did think that I could call up all the high street lenders and ask their viewpoint on it. As you say it is early days but it is also something that has to be sorted out.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2011
     
    The economics of solar pv are mad! Were you to invest say 10k in a system yourself you would get it back more than twice over. The FIT will probably become very valuable and you can keep it even if you sell the house!

    I would not let anyone other than me put solar panels on my roof, I can borrow at a few percent and scoop in over a 10% return.

    Get your own!!
  10.  
    I've got a 2kWp solar PV array; also work from home, on a computer, and I run the washing machine, hoover, etc when the panels are generating. I still export around 75% of what's being generated. So, if you've already got your electricity consumption down pretty low, I don't think that you'll benefit much from free panels. As Tony says above, financially you'd be better off getting a loan and installing your own.

    On the mortgage question - if anyone has any experience of being turned down because of a roof lease scheme, please get in touch with me, as I'm planning a blog on the subject in the near future.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2011
     
    yes, let me know too please. It hasn't been an issue for the installs I've been involved with...

    Rgds

    Damon
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2011
     
    Cathy
    In your capacity as Yougen editor would you like to call up the mortgage companies and ask if they lend against an existing property that has the roof leased out for 25 years for PV, not talking about people that have a loan on a property and wish to lease the roof, though I think this coudl be an issue in the future.
    I take my knowledge on this from a Radio 4 'You and Yours' piece about these schemes and a lady from a bank called in to say that they would not lend.
    This really does need to be sorted out. As an aside I would not buy a property with it on (would not pay extra for it either) and suspect that most solicitors would advice against it.
  13.  
    @SteamyTea - Yes, it's on my to do list to phone a whole range of banks and find out what their policy is - it just hasn't got to the top yet.

    I agree with you about buying a house with it on - I wouldn't either. Before you go ahead with these rent a roof schemes I think it's important to know what the options are if you sell. Will the company take the panels off if your buyer doesn't want them? It seems to vary as far as I can see.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2011 edited
     
    Another worry is what happens next year when the FITs drop, I suspect that many of these companies will vanish, the market is flooded with them as it is. If the company that installs them does vanish (for what ever reason) is there a mechanism for getting the FITs payment transferred to the home owner when the original owner is uncontactable? Or does the home owner become a creditor/Debtor to the receiver?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2011
     
    At that point they will probably be in breach of contract and it could probably be legally established that they had "abandoned" them unless the new owner of the assets fulfills the contract terms. At that point I suspect that the householder can just take them over.

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2011
     
    Assume the company fitting the pv buys its arrays off the company that makes/imports them but still owes them money when they go bust/vanish to the Costas...? :cry:
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2011
     
    How do your agrements work, Damon?

    Does the householder enter into a FIT contract with their supplier and then name you as the 'nominated recipient' or do you enter into the contract and name yourself as the recipient?

    As I understand it - only the named person entering into that contract is able to notify the supplier of any change of terms. The supplier would be within their rights (though maybe not acting 'reasonably' in all circumstances) to reject any notifications of a chage of ownership from anyone else.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2011
     
    My company is the recipient directly, to avoid for example avoid the householder having to fill out a tax self-assessment form. In the relevant installation already completed the supplier paying the FiTs didn't need to talk to the consumer about the process at all. My company owns the PV, contracts with the retail supplier for the FiTs, and leaves the consumer out of it entirely except for the free electricity. I expect that to be the case for the next one too, where the retailer contracting for the FiTs isn't even the same as the retail supplier to the house.

    Rgds

    Damon
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2011
     
    Right, so if your company suddenly ceases to exist I think the supplier would be within their rights to simply cancel the contract and pay no FITs to anyone at all. The householder would still get free electricity and might even continue to supply meter readings, completely unaware.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2011 edited
     
    I think that may be technically possible, but I think there would probably be a big fuss!

    Rgds

    Damon

    PS. In my case meter readings would go via the company so that would stop the company did.
    PPS. FiT supplier is Ecotricity, so unlikely to indulge in sharp practice I think.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2011
     
    So it is entirely possible that someone entering into a 'roof for rent' scheme could end up not being able to sell their property, unable to get remedial work fixed, unable to transfer FIT payments, not saying this will happen in all cases, (and definitely not saying Damon will). I just find it a bit worrying. And the supplier of the kit could come and demand it back at any time if (though I doubt this would happen through the Receiver). Interesting times, just borrow the cash and fit your own.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2011
     
    Borrowing the cash makes it economically marginal, though still helps the planet and keeps control as you point out.

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2011 edited
     
    10%+ return with a current install prices and FIT rate , If you own a property and can get the money at your mortgage rate , by remortgage or an addtional advance , perhaps getting an over payment back ( this is what I've done ) Lets say M. rates average around 5% for the next 25 years ( or you fix ) so 5% margin , pretty good tax free for 25 years
    (unless of course they pull it in future for some unforseen reason, which I believe it says they can in the small print )
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2011
     
    I think we would be unwise to *assume* interest rates averaging as low as 5% over the next few years. Very difficult to tell even whether we will be experiencing inflation or deflation, never mind shocks such as EU government debt default.

    But yes, I'd still do it with (say) cheap mortgage borrowing to help insulate against energy-inflation (a racing cert) on top of CC benefits.

    Rgds

    Damon
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2011 edited
     
    When I asked my Banko they would only offer 7.95% over 10 years I think, but then I do not have a mortgage. Was fixed though. Same bank are offering 5% on current accounts up balance of 2.5k (as long as 1k passes though it a month) and I am sure you coudl find some fixed rate bonds somewhere at 6% (Barclays had one 2 years ago then dropped to 5%). So the finances do start to become very marginal, though there is the carbon side. It only really makes sense when you have reduced your usage to a pitifully small amount for domestic use. But that always makes sense.
    Even if electricity was 45p/kWh it would still be cheap. Food is about £2.50/kWh.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2011
     
    Altruism vs self-interest then? :wink:
  27.  
    As promised (ages ago), I did some ringing round the banks to see what the situation is with free solar panels and your mortgage provider. They vary a bit in what they do, but generally require the installer/rent a roof provider to prove that their lease meets requirements drawn up by the Council of Mortgage Lenders, and that the installer meets certain standards (MCS will do). You can see a full list of requirements at http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/1733/Free+solar+schemes%273A+talk+to+your+mortgage+lender+before+you+sign/ - but my impression is that the most important one for the banks is the ability to break the lease if the property is repossessed. They all stressed that the borrower should talk to the mortgage provider too, not just rely on the installer doing so. If you're in a leashold flat it may not be possible.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2011 edited
     
    Thanks Cathy. So it seems it can be made legal and acceptable. Interesting last line in your article :wink:
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2011
     
    As usual the Devil is in the detail and the wise assume nothing! :devil:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2011 edited
     
    The big worry is that some of the companies that install this kit will not mention it, which is worse that dismissing it, as a problem.
    Really down to the loan providers (and their agents) to contact all customers and advice them.
    Good to see that at least 2 'roof for rent' companies have looked into it. Makes them seem a bit more responsible.

    What is the old saying, 'if it is too good to be true, it probably is'

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