Green Building Forum - More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

Donkey — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 16:01:50 +0100

Anyone know the details of the Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

http://www.rechargenews.com/business_area/finance/article278045.ece?WT.mc_id=rechargenews_rss

Turbine defects mean Proven Energy is 'running out of cash'

Proven Energy â€“ a leading supplier of small-scale wind turbines â€“ faces administration unless it finds a quick cash-injection, after the largest model in its portfolio was found to have technical defects.

Private equity-backed investor Low Carbon Accelerator (LCA), which has sunk Â£11.2m ($17.7m) into Proven and holds an 81% equity stake, says it expects to make a â€œsubstantial or total write-downâ€ on its investment.

Proven has informed LCA that due to a â€œrecent and acuteâ€ technical defect discovered on three of its P-35-2 turbines, it has suspended sales of the model and advised all owners to immediately shut them down.

LCA says that as a result of the defect and the sales suspension â€œexacerbated by the current difficult planning environment, Proven is now incurring losses that it cannot sustain without a further injection of cashâ€.

LCA, which is listed on Londonâ€™s AIM stock exchange and ploughed another Â£500,000 into Proven as recently as last month, saw its share price nosedive more than 45% to Â£0.14 on the news.

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

ted — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 16:58:00 +0100

There can't possibly be any deficiencies in Proven turbines can there? They have been certified by MCS following extensive testing after all.

On the other hand - it could mean that MCS product testing is totally and utterly meaningless and valueless.

Hmm, I wonder which it is? I guess we (and I am a Proven owner) are about to find out.

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

DamonHD — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:27:23 +0100

But is that testing a bit like the stuff that the US Energy Star and our own Energy Saving Trust labels used to rely on until they found out that some manufacturers, esp in the East, weren't as candid as they'd have liked?

The reverse is that overdoing tests makes innovation and small production runs hard, unless you want to pay through the nose...

Rgds

Damon

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

JSHarris — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:39:10 +0100

Posted By: DamonHDBut is that testing a bit like the stuff that the US Energy Star and our own Energy Saving Trust labels used to rely on until they found out that some manufacturers, esp in the East, weren't as candid as they'd have liked?

The reverse is that overdoing tests makes innovation and small production runs hard, unless you want to pay through the nose...

Rgds

Damon

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Chinese manufacturer when importing some electrical goods. I'd discovered the live and neutral crossed over on a power supply, so the blue wire was live and the brown neutral. I asked how this could have happened as the goods were CE marked. His reply was that "CE" meant "China Export"................

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

ted — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 22:39:17 +0100

If MCS testing doesn't protect consumers from defective products then what use is it?

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

CWatters — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 07:41:52 +0100

Isn't it mainly an anti fraud measure?

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

DamonHD — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 07:55:57 +0100

I see one of its purposes as discouraging theft: ie *new* stuff needs to be installed to get the FiT.

Rgds

Damon

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

Dominic Cooney — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:45:17 +0100

No, the purpose of the FIT is to destroy the second-hand market. It is not there to help increase the uptake of renewable energy technologies, but to help the BUSINESSES (installing and manufacturing) involved in that sector, not the customers!

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

ted — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:33:02 +0100

How could MCS product testing be an anti fraud measure? Do you mean similar to the US wind turbine company who claimed that their turbine was 4kW when it was more like 400W - yes, it would stop that. But with FITs in the UK, controlling payments via meter readings, that is much less relevant. (In the US case, payments were up front and based on nameplate capacity.)

But the main reason for MCS product testing is to satisfy consumers that products will perform as described by the manufacturer. The remainder of the MCS process (for products) is to ensure that the manufacturer has suitable quality control measures in place in their factory to ensure that all products coming off the line are of a consistent quality.

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

DamonHD — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:37:00 +0100

No the MCS/FiT scheme rules, not the testing part! Sorry to be unclear.

Rgds

Damon

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

JSHarris — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:55:23 +0100

Posted By: Dominic CooneyNo, the purpose of the FIT is to destroy the second-hand market. It is not there to help increase the uptake of renewable energy technologies, but to help the BUSINESSES (installing and manufacturing) involved in that sector, not the customers!

Absolutely! Every single government initiative to reduce energy loss, encourage renewables, incentivise the purchase of more eco-friendly technologies has been very heavily biased in favour of boosting businesses, with the unfortunate side effects of increasing cost to the consumer and making re-use of serviceable components near impossible.

I could design and build a perfectly serviceable solar or wind system for my own use at a fraction of the cost of a commercial product, but I wouldn't be able to grid tie it, neither would I be eligible for any government subsidy or grant.

The raw fact is that industry is far more effective at getting what they want from new grant or subsidy legislation than consumers are.

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

Dominic Cooney — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 11:57:13 +0100

It could just be based on meter readings to level the playing field. You generate, you get rewarded.

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

Mike (Up North) — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:32:28 +0100

Hi,

I had a look at the Proven web site and it seems to be locked down (excpt for logged on users) and except for the warning/statement that the units should have the parking brake on. I assume that means not rotating. Since I saw the above post I have seen 6x P35â€™s all spinning away.

So realistically does one run out and stop the thing and how does one stop a unit that is rotating â€“ wait till wind calms down? Itâ€™s fairly windy round here and itâ€™s very rarely that I see these units still.

Not my units â€“ just interested.

Cheers
Mike up North

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

DamonHD — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:34:49 +0100

Ideally wait until the wind stops before trying to apply a brake to a turbine.

Rgds

Damon

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

Donkey — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:34:50 +0100

I think perhaps this thread has gone off topic. I had originally asked "Anyone know the details of the Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

I now see on the home page at the Proven website http://www.provenenergy.co.uk/ There is this warning:-

Proven Energy has become aware of a potential manufacturing defect in its Proven 35-2 wind turbine (The Proven 7 and Proven 11 are unaffected). We are investigating this, however, our work to date has now shown that a significant number of shafts may be affected across multiple manufacturing batches.

With that in mind we are now advising all Proven 35-2 owners to place their wind turbines on brake as soon as it is safe to do so. Under no circumstances should you apply the parking brake whilst the wind turbine is rotating at normal operating speeds since this will place extra stress on the shaft. We will ensure that you receive regular updates in the interim period. Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience caused.

If they are giving this warning about the shaft it sounds to me they are thinking the shaft may shear and the blades come off - I wouldn't want to be near that

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

CWatters — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 21:14:19 +0100

If I remember correctly BSI are normally involved in product recalls if there are safety issues.

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

TOM W — Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:21:19 +0100

Proven went bust at noon!

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

ted — Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:50:38 +0100

Links?

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

Nick Parsons — Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:58:34 +0100

Uggh. I wonder where that leaves all users with product issues? Dealing with the administrator, I guess.

I had been trying to look up some power curves today and found, like Mike, that no-one except existing users could get in.

Shame. Our 2.5 didn't perform that well, but neiter did the wind! I know a few 6kW users who are all v happy with them.

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

Nick Parsons — Fri, 16 Sep 2011 17:01:07 +0100

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-14953786

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

JSHarris — Fri, 16 Sep 2011 17:06:07 +0100

My understanding is that they just got caught by a cash-flow crisis caused by the shaft failure problem and subsequent very high cost of rectification.

A bigger company may have been able to carry the loss from this problem for long enough to get back into the black, but there seem to be very few big and well-funded manufacturers in this particular area, mores the pity.

(edited to add that this post crossed with the post containing the link to essentially the same tale on the BBC website)

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

Mike (Up North) — Fri, 16 Sep 2011 18:31:57 +0100

Hi,

Well the 6x P35's i've passed on the way home are all chugging away happily. So I guess the owners are not minded to switch off. I'd do the same and keep running as they are invariably on agri land well away from any body.

The worry over potential shaft manf defect might have been the straw for the camel etc etc but is at least plausable and valid, but i'm afraid it may have been the hard times though, its the hard nosed business types that often win over. I'm always sorry to see this happen to a smallish manufacturer but this can lead to other opportunities (DPS managed to raise from the ashes so to speak).

So lets all wish the proven people all the best wishes for whatever the future holds.

Cheers

Mike up North

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

SteamyTea — Fri, 16 Sep 2011 21:31:42 +0100

One near me has not been running much since it was installed a year or so back, lets hope they bought it on a credit card.
Does this mean that the installers have to pick up the tab?

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

windy lamb — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 12:04:29 +0100

Oh dear, very sorry to hear the news because we are talking peoples jobs.

I was advised as far back as Xmas 2009 that Proven had expanded too quickly and if a new product did have a significant problem then that may bring down the company (same as a lot of small manufacturers) so to look for another turbine. Should have got my lottery numbers off that chap aswell!!!
Lets hope that there is a simple solution to the shaft problem and that another company can see a benefit in taking that on.

Steamy, Can't see any installers having the cash resources to solve this one.

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

SteamyTea — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 12:23:28 +0100

Posted By: windy lambSteamy, Can't see any installers having the cash resources to solve this one.

Nor can I, and with the FITs review, over capacity in the installer marketplace blah blah, all a bit worrying for the small domestic RE industry.

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

windy lamb — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 12:41:15 +0100

Yeh, I thought quite hard about choosing an installer as some definitely didn't have a good business plan, i.e only selling stuff and neither installing (using subcontractors) nor providing maintenance. Only one way that's going to go.

There is a place for a profitable small wind turbine sector - manufacturer with one or two products, and resellers who are installers and maintainers. BUT some of us small turbine owners might have to learn how to make our own parts(I'm not good with heights!).

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

SteamyTea — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:16:09 +0100

Posted By: windy lambI'm not good with heights!

Shall start with a tower that comes down easily, or rent out cheap scaffolding.

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

windy lamb — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 16:01:01 +0100

Don't need the scaffolding as the tower has a ladder all the way to the top - I just haven't got the balls to climb it!

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

SteamyTea — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 16:06:48 +0100

Not really a problem with a faulty Proven, but still impressed with these boys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A_h2AjJaMw

More Proven P35-2 turbine problems?

windy lamb — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 17:01:16 +0100

Steamy, I just watched that video and it made me feel sick.