"Riot police broke up a four-day protest by several hundred villagers in Haining, Zhejiang province, who overturned cars and stormed the compound of a photovoltaic manufacturer that is accused of releasing toxins into a local river."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/18/chinese-solar-panel-factory-protest

"Although solar is seen as clean energy in terms of carbon emissions, the production of many components is energy intensive and polluting. Toxic discharges from the factory killed large numbers of fish and regulators have previously ordered the company to suspend operations, according to the domestic media."

I'm sure most interested in PV as alternative energy are aware of the negatives of PV , thought it would be of interested to discuss and list the cons of PV , as we generally just hear the pros

I wonder how many other so called "green" technologies are really that or just a money saving or earning venture for the rich. How accurate and wide ranging are the embodied energy figures, I guess that's the question

Hi there,

This is such an interesting and valid point. If we are going to move into green energy we need to do it the right way. Renewables in particular should be leading by example in terms of environmental stewardship, so highlighting this issue in PV manufacturing is incredibly valuable for increasing industry standards.

The fact is that there is a lot of room to improve these industry standards. The majority of solar pv manufacturing isn't green, it is actually very energy intensive and wasteful. But it doesn't have to be and I know that some solar panel installers (ethical solar is one that I have heard of more recently www.ethicalsolar.org) have been very careful to source panels that are a lot GREENER then conventional ones.

The panels they install are manufactured in Norway I think, where the manufacturing process is powered by hydropower as opposed to coal (which is usually the case for chinese factories). REC is one of the panels I was told about, and REC use a silicon purification process, using Fluidized Bed Reactor (FBR) which saves a large amount of electricity and lowers the cost. The other panel I was told about is Innotech. Innotech panels are made out of restored solar cells (so the waste of the solar industry) while they use hydropower to power the manufacturing process as well. REC and Innotech are demonstrating that while being greener you can also save costs which can be passed onto consumers having solar panel installations.

The other thing I liked about ethical solar as installers was that they use low impact methods as well. Their vans run of veg oil and they heavily support environmental charities like the transition network.
Sadly I am only a student so couldn't afford my own solar system, but if I could I would choose the panels mentioned above and I would get ethical solar to install them. So many people just go for the cheapest or biggest companies without understanding their choices. I'm glad this guardian article is raising this important issue and long may it continue to put pressure on big renewable energy companies raking in big money but not making the right choices for the planet or society.

Useful websites: www.innotechsolar.com www.recgroup.com/en/tech/FBR/ www.ethicalsolar.org

It's waste vegetable oil sourced locally in Bristol- is that not ethical?

Posted By: annadixieIt's waste vegetable oil sourced locally in Bristol- is that not ethical?

Ethics of using waste is a tricky area as you could easily be forfeiting a better use for the waste product.
When it comes down to energy, how does it compare to the use of 'ordinary bio-diesel' or even fossil fuel based diesel.
Assuming the final combustion process and energy densities are identical for all 'diesels' and produce the same emissions (though they probably do vary in actuality) one has to calculate the net benefit not just part of the benefit. This is fairly easy with fossil fuels as we know the amount that is pumped out of the ground, the amount and type of energy used to distil diesel, the energy used in storage and distribution and finally the amount sold to consumers. Normal bio-diesel is also fairly well understood from the manufacturing and distribution side but causes problems (allegedly) because of the change from food crops to energy crops (the ethics).
Energy from waste is little understood as it is not a major factor in the energy market yet. Things to consider though are the energies in collection, refining and redistribution. As it is small scale these are almost certainly high as a percentage of overall energy delivered to the consumer. It is also no more environmentally benign than ordinary diesel if produced to the same standard (it has to be really for the mass market).

What would happen to waste veg oil if it were not converted to biodiesel?

looks like this install might be on the dark side , house faces SW
had to stop and take a pix, the wide angle of the camera lens doesn't really do it justice ,
in reality its looks far worse . Or am i missing something ?

With the tree there as well! A brilliant piece of selling by one of the 'Which'-fingered salesmen?

Knock on there door and ask then how good it is, then point them to REAL and MCS. Though I hope it is a roof for rent installation.
Reminds me of the joke 'what do you call the box behind the satellite dish', 'a council house'.

Posted By: joe90What would happen to waste veg oil if it were not converted to biodiesel?

Used to go to feed animals but not sure that is allowed now.

Posted By: Gavin_Awaste veg oil already has to be collected by a specialist contractor though, so there's virtually no additional transport costs associated with that side of the operation

The transport energy does not magically vanish because it may or may not have had a secondary use, just that it is displaced somewhere else. Each use/process of a waste material has to be accounted for in its own right or you head down the 'tragedy of the commons' route.

This problem is going to accelerate until the review in March.

Doesn't look too bad - if the house 'faces SW' then the camera shows a gd clear view from due south. You can't insist on due south and no trees for every installation. As tony says,

Posted By: tony10% return instead of 12.5%

All that area will maintain winter take unusually well - a high proportion of low-angle sun will make it thro the bare branches from dawn to dusk, when the sky is clear in winter.
As far as

Posted By: jamesingramin reality its looks far worse

is that an appearance judgement? IMHO this is good looking - given that plonked-on rectangular panels usually look terrible, this one at least is tightly tailored to the roof form (hip line) with nicely judged margins all round.

James
Can you find this property in Google Earth and establish which way that roof faces for us all. Real data is great, take out the guess work

And said without a hint of bias.

IF you can get it! I filled up twice from a local supplier (in a small unit on Stanmore, on the edge of Bridgnorth), that was about three years ago, but stopped bothering to ask if any was available because a local transport firm was buying everything they produced. Not aware of anyone else starting up an operation. It wasn't a massive operation, seeming to comprise a couple of very large tanks, lots of pipes and not much noise. Not exactly lab conditions, but according to the guy who operated it (there were two other 'money partners') not cheap to set up if you were doing it on a commercial basis and didn't want numerous claims for compensation because the stuff had buggered-up a fleet of lorries.

From the shadow off the Seat car I'd suggest south facing, in which case it's likely that the tree shades the roof for ~1/3rd of the day for half the year, and fraction of that for the other leafless seasons.

As for going off-topic... the thread's title refers to the nasties involved in pv production, it was Jim who led us into the deviation of that roof's orientation. Mind you, we didn't have to follow him!