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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorOliver
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2007
     
    i'm putting a natural ventilation/cooling system into the larder/pantry of a new build, simply a vent at low level on an external wall and a 'chimney' out through the roof (high vaulted ceiling space). I've also included the exhausts from the two fridge freezers on the outside of the larder released into the space at high levels. I'm confident the process will work but i'm unsure of the name of the process i'm using and i'm struggling to find a simple stainless steel 'chimney' with rain proof top. They all seem to be insulated for use with fires and thus expensive, does anyone know a firm who specialise in these bits and pieces? I'm also wondering wether I should incorporate a moving vent on the top of the 'chimney/tower' to maximise on the convection.. any ideas or comments?
    cheers
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2007
     
    I hope your larder/pantry is outside of the insulated envelope, with airtight insulated door to 'indoors' http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=749&page=1#Item_14
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2007
     
    Are the appliances releasing heat into your larder?
    • CommentAuthorOliver
    • CommentTimeOct 23rd 2007
     
    the larder is on an outside wall, included in the overall insulated envelope but insulated again between itself and the rest of the building. The door is an oak t&g board and brace with 25mm thick boards, framing round all four sides (including the bottom) and rubber 'fin' seals too. The floor is a polished concrete and the work top a brown slate.
    I've not skimmed the inside yet and was wondering if there may be any benefits form an other than normal gyproc finish? (lime is out as the other side of the blocks is gyproc'd, so wouldn't breath anyway.)
    Yes the fridge freezers, both of which back onto the outside (from the inside space!) of the blocks forming the larder walls have their heat channelled up the outside of the blocks to about 700mm below the chimney outlet and then are directed into the upper part of the larder space...
    Make any sense?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 23rd 2007
     
    Posted By: Oliverother than normal gyproc finish
    Do you mean gypsum wet plaster? - gyproc means plasterboard.
    Posted By: Oliverthe other side of the blocks is gyproc'd, so wouldn't breath anyway
    gypsum wet plaster, also ordinary gyproc plasterboard, do breathe, but vapour-check plasterboard or some kinds of plasterboard/insulation laminate don't breathe.
    Posted By: OliverYes the fridge freezers, both of which back onto the outside (from the inside space!) of the blocks forming the larder walls have their heat channelled up the outside of the blocks to about 700mm below the chimney outlet and then are directed into the upper part of the larder space...
    Make any sense?
    Explain again?
    • CommentAuthorOliver
    • CommentTimeOct 23rd 2007
     
    sorry..!!!!!
    yeah meant gypsum, dyslexic moment!
    It's just normal multi-finish onto 12.5mm standard plaster board.
    re. the fridges, if you imagine a section with a 100mm block wall in the centre running up from floor to ceiling, to the right, the ceiling is at 90 degrees, parallel to the floor, whilst to the left you are in the eaves and the ceiling tapers down at 45deg's to about half way down the block height and is vertical from their down.... Make any sense?
    On the right of the blocks with their rears to the blocks there are a line of two fridges, the 'exhaust heat' travels up a contained chimney space of 50mm by 200mm per each fridge to about 2/3 up the block wall and then punches through into the top part of the other side (i.e. the larder space). just above the point of entry for the warm air there is the outlet to the 'air tunnel' where cool air rushing across the mouth combined with the warm air released should combine to ensure continuous circulation via the inlet at the bottom of the left hand external wall.
    The inlet is 6" wide.
    i'm unsure as to what dimension the outlet should be...
  1.  
    I don't understand why you want to waste the heat that your fridges/freezers are generating - effectively you're getting a COP of around 3 for that heat - it seems a shame to vent it outside. I can understand not wanting it in your larder, but to put it outside? It's like having a window open with the heating on. Unless you're in a hot climate and are trying to reduce the cooling load, then it would make sense. Can you explain why you want to waste all that heat?

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthorOliver
    • CommentTimeOct 23rd 2007
     
    wish we were trying to reduce the cooling load!!!
    Sadly we're in the Channel Islands and I am trying to be as efficient as possible. We have a well insulated roof and u/f heating throughout. My thinking was more to combine/assist the circulation in the larder space, using the hot air to draw the cold through.
    I'm very much at the beginning of my career so learning all the time, in fact it is a shame to loose the heat, you're right, but I think in this scheme it is probably already too late to change it.
    For future reference, how would you re-use the heat? Simply vent it directly into the space? I'd have thought that could be risky?
    • CommentAuthorOliver
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2007
     
    any more comments guys?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2007
     
    You could put the freezer in the "larder" but NOT its heat exchanger put that in the house in winter and outdoors in summer. The larder would work OK with a low vent and a high one -- no need to drive it with heat.
  2.  
    How come you need all this food storage Oliver? Freezer, 2 fridges and a larder! Integrating a cool area, like a larder into your building, increases its insulated surface area and will increase the heat loss of the building. It could only be an energy saver if it allowed you to do without your fridges and freezers like in the old days. I'd forget the idea and think about digging a root store in the garden, detached from your house.
    • CommentAuthorOliver
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2007
     
    Mainly because the client is a cook and wants varrying storage conditions.
    One of the fridge freezers will be primarily used when a large cooking job arrises (i.e. christmas time) other than that it will be turned off. The larder is to be a sort of cupboard come pantry affair as opposed to a replacement for a fridge. Butters, cheeses certain meats and vegetables but also tins and cereals etc...
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