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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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  1.  
    Hi, having specified Passihaus windows (u value 0.75) the total DER/TER results were more than satisfactory when coupled with Biomass and PV. (100% reduction attained).
    So the logical choice (money is def a significant factor here) is to choose a perhaps slightly worse performing window, say 1.6u, this has negligible effect on results. The passihaus windows were great but expensive.
    Looking for recommendations for ali/timber clad window manufacturers for CSH code 5 new build.
  2.  
    Hi,

    I am buying my window's from AMProfiles who can do triple glazed window's to Uw 0.9 for quite reasonable cost - quite a lot cheaper than the passive house windows
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2011
     
    Yes, if you relax the spec somewhat there is no reason to go much past Uw of 1.0-1.1. There are plenty of windows available at that sort of spec that don't cost the earth.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2011 edited
     
    I hate to say it , but you can get Rehau 3G Uw 1.1 upvc for around £150m2 inc.
    what the mass market wants ? at an affordable price , with a good thermal rating .
    I think Wookie had a thread a little while back suggesting this may well be the way forward for the mass energy efficiency refurbishment, that will be needed, if domestic energy usage targets are to be met
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2011
     
    Dos 'inc' mean incl fitting?
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2011 edited
     
    You're wishing :bigsmile:
    no sorry inc , means just inc. vat , ( m2 price for a small guy )
    Standard ball park figure for windows, supply and fit. used to be 2 x supply cost
    the fitters for the expensive big boys are getting much,much less than that though. £20-80 per window

    Local supplier/fitter should be beating ( cheaper than ) that x 2 ball park , I recon
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2011
     
    So £150/m2 incl VAT = £125 basic, plus you say £250 to fit? Can that be right? If so, total £375/m2 fitted.

    Compare with Russell 3G Scandinavian-style wood, £230/m2 plus same (?) £250 fitting = £480/m2 fitted.

    So the difference isn't that big - know which I'd prefer.
    • CommentAuthoran02ew
    • CommentTimeSep 28th 2011
     
    Also all passive house windows are internally opening, who want that ?
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeSep 28th 2011 edited
     
    For upvc, Jim's fitting price is right (although the guy charging £20/window must be a registered charity).

    For my wooden windows I used to work on a rate of half a day per window, including all making good, and charged £150/day, so £75 per window (who said I couldn't do maths?). I wasn't VAT registered.

    (And "all passive house windows are internally opening". Really?)
    • CommentAuthoran02ew
    • CommentTimeSep 28th 2011
     
    Yes joiner so Im led to believe it's all to do with the Air tight seals and the extra number of seals that can be incorporated into them with that configuration

    Also slot to do with the Europeans favouring that style and that's were most ( if not all) the passive house windows are produce

    I wish it were different because we are looking for windows but don't want internal openers
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeSep 28th 2011 edited
     
    Tom , Its an old rule of thumb ,
    Standard ball park figure for windows, supply and fit. used to be 2 x supply cost ,
    including measuring up , stripping out, fitting and all making good, except decor ,
    so
    £150 for supply of window ( to trade ) , £300 supply and fit to customer
    £300 supply , £600 supply and fit
    £1000 supply , £2000 supply and fit etc.
    the more expensive the window , the more you charge to fit it , more time and care needed
    also you will always get a percentage of errors and breakage and this needs to be covered.

    Joiners guide is fine , if the client takes all risk , if not, it leave no room for breakage or error , unless he's put this in a markup on his window supply price,
    All business needs to allow for problems in thier margins as random thing always happen.

    This ballpark is what it used to be , now for fair priced tradesmen and suppliers its probably somewhere between this and joiners day rate for standard windows ,
    and 'make it up as you go along' for fancy type designer stuff, with the usual supplier/marketing/distributer creaming the lion share and the fitter getting low flat rates , such as with those UPVC big boys.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeSep 28th 2011 edited
     
    Posted By: JoinerFor upvc, Jim's fitting price is right (although the guy charging £20/window must be a registered charity).

    They dont choose the fit price, they get told what thier going to get by supplier/contractor/employer
    and that's a subby rate. A while back they used to get a percentage of job value , now it generally on flat rates
    The bigger the company the harder they screw the fitters.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeSep 28th 2011
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: jamesingram</cite>They dont choose the fit price, they get told what thier going to get by supplier/contractor/employer and that's a subby rate. A while back they used to get a percentage of job value , now it generally on flat rates
    The bigger the company the harder they screw the fitters.</blockquote>

    That sounds about right to me. We had 14 windows, 2 doors and a set of patio doors fitted five years ago and the supplier asked us to pay with two cheques, one for him, one for the fitters. The fitters were here for five days (two of them - they worked their socks off) and got the princely sum of £600 in total, around £35 per item they fitted. Given that they did a cracking job, I was a bit amazed that they worked for so little.
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeSep 29th 2011
     
    I just paid £5500 inc for 13m2 of timber 3G windows+doors, (delivered, inc. - i.e. about £4000 before vat+delivery, which is £308/m2). Fitting was £580 including lifter hire and took 1 day. That was supplied on a day-rate so it was my risk that it would be £1120 if it took 2 days, and so on, but fortunately everything (apart from 2-hr late delivery) went very well. That's just basic fitting - I still have taping and trim and cills and reveals to do. That's £145/item, with 3 chaps on hand so we could move the bloody things (pre-glazed 3G is exceedingly heavy). That's a long way from 'double the price for fitting'.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeSep 30th 2011 edited
     
    Yes, It does seem a fair price.
    who measured up and whos risk was it if they didn't fit , who would pay if a unit broke during installation?
    How much would a builder get the same windows for ?
    What if the manifacturer/supplier total costs to site were £150m2, people minipulate prices to make the consumer feel like thier getting value for money
    Price is usually related to cost , risk and profit. I know the people i can get 3G upvc for £150m2 inc vat aren't paying anywhere near that for it. But the risk of supply to my customer is pretty much all mine.
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2011
     
    I measured up, (tolerances were suggested by supplier) so it was my fault if things didn't fit (and yes I did fret about that!).

    No idea what would happen if they'd dropped one. I hope it would be the builders' problem, but not actually specified. That was a non-zero risk due to things being 'bloody heavy'.

    My builder would have gone to a more expensive local supplier he likes (~6 grand pre-VAT rather than 4, but with the advantages of a local supplier when anything goes wrong).

    As you say, the risks in window measuring/purchase/fitting can be quite high, and that has to be covered somewhere along the way. (
  3.  
    wookey , could you post or whisper your supplier , thanks Jim
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeOct 5th 2011
     
    It was make and fit and we never broke anything! :bigsmile:

    Subbies? Well...:wink:
  4.  
    "Never broke anything", yeah right !

    just looking at some uPVC windows Uw 0.8 tad over £200m2 inc vat , supply only
    So what are wood or alli clad going for for similar Uw
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2011 edited
     
    Russell Timbertech Scandinavian-style outward opening 3G wood windows £230/m2 Uw 1.1 - unbeateable AFAIK. V hard to get below 1.1 with outward opening - below that requires multiple rubber seals to opening lights, getting into Passivhaus designs which are (nearly?) all inward opening.

    so how do these PVC ones get 0.8? Name/make?
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2011 edited
     
    70mm rehau profile , 44m 3G unit planitherm soft coat , warm edge, argon fill
    they claim Ug 0.53 ? Uw 0.8
    they do PH range also , claim Ug 0.6 (centre pane) and Uw 0.74
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2011 edited
     
    doesn't show the 'triple A ultra range' on website , but I've been sent a flyer claiming those values

    http://www.cwgchoices.com/triple-glazed-windows-doors-conservatories.php
    http://www.cwgchoices.com/system-88.php
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2011
     
    There you are - open-in. Are you happy with that?
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2011 edited
     
    the 'triple A ultra range', which I got the flyer for, opens out .
    2 seals on opening lights , but thats standard with upvc
    rehau 70mm with very thin internal bead to take larger unit.
    So do you think Ug 0.53 / Uw 0.8 is suspect ?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2011 edited
     
    No, sounds interesting. If they can do it open-out, the section geometry shd work for timber too. Looks horribly 'stormproof', not pretty.

    http://www.rehau.co.uk/building.solutions/windows..doors...curtain.walling/window.systems/geneo.shtml ?
    or
    http://www.rehau.co.uk/building.solutions/windows..doors...curtain.walling/window.systems/0.8.u.value.window.solution.shtml ?
    "The really clever part about the window is a new REHAU THERMO foam module which can be applied post manufacture or on site".
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeOct 16th 2011
     
    james. Supplier was Greensteps. Green Building Store came a very close second, with extremely similar product. 10% discount for AECB members, and excellent tech advice (not that there is anything wrong with GBS's), tipped it for Greensteps.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeOct 16th 2011 edited
     
    Tom ,your second links is the profile. so yes Uw= 0.8 open out.
    OK so its upvc , not popular in the world of green building , though they claim its recyclable and some profiles are made of 100% post consumer waste.
    Negatives I guess are in the production/recycling process.

    But availability and price is good , many manifacturers offer a 7-14 day delivery date from point of order.
    For the small jobbing builder , doing extension etc. on utility type houses that already have upvc, waiting 2 months+ for hard to source high spec wood is not going to encourage them down that route.

    These local upvc manifacturers can easily step up/switch to the hi-spec unit , unlike the large scale UK wood window industry which seems to struggle. Most local joiners seem uninterested in change and high spec wood still seems specialist and generally comparatively expensive . though i agree the likes of russelltech are having a good go at improving on that.

    Could Uw of 0.8 make a big difference in the refurb world ? after the picking of the low hanging fruits of loft insulation and airtightness , windows must then play a big part in building energy loss
    Is the use of upvc getting similar to the natural/petrochemical insulation debate , where the priority of energy saving and affordable cost starts to over rule the selection of production materials ?

    Wookey , thanks. I sent some details over to them a while back for a job , but heard nothing , I'll check to see if they ever got it.
  5.  
    LIFE CYCLE OF WINDOW MATERIALS - A COMPARATIVE ASSESSMENT
    http://www.cibse.org/pdfs/Masif.pdf
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 16th 2011
     
    Posted By: jamesingramIs the use of upvc getting similar to the natural/petrochemical insulation debate , where the priority of energy saving and affordable cost starts to over rule the selection of production materials ?
    good point - food for thought (sadly!).
  6.  
    more info here
    http://www.ggpmag.com/wersitem.asp?articleID=960
    "The new REHAU THERMO window has been deliberately developed using cost effective off the shelf profiles so that fabricators can begin manufacturing straightaway without any special machining or tooling set up and with no requirement for separate stockholding.
   
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