Green Building Forum - Firewood prices

Firewood prices

Jonti — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:04:07 +0100

ST,

to answer your question, the problem with weight is it depends on type of wood and amount of moisture still in it. These two things can vary so much selling by weight is a con and effectively would make green wood more valuble than dried. Of the 5 countries I have bought and/or sold firewood britain is the only one to sell by weight.

Jonti.

Firewood prices

SteamyTea — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:18:34 +0100

Jonti
Yes, it is a problem, so very hard to compare like for like. Makes working out the Â£/GJ almost impossible.
But using 16 MJ/kg and density between 500-800 kg/m^3 we can estimate that a m^3 has about 10.5GJ (for solid lump of timber). If we allow for 15% being air in a stacked pile, then we have 9 GJ/m^3. Does that seem reasonable?

Firewood prices

dickster — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:51:19 +0100

For ease of understanding worth of log, how many Kwhours worth is in a MJ or GJ? ie. I know a Kwh is around 14p for electricity?

Firewood prices

gustyturbine — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:10:27 +0100

Blimey,
Now to find my chain saw, I have loads of fallen trees in my area. The problem is finding out who owns them, unless anyone has a silent chain saw? Only kidding, its impossible to run with arms full of logs and a saw under the other! I can manage about 200 mtrs but no more!
No seriously, I feel it is such a waste looking at the timber rotting. Although it does provide habitat etc,
Gusty.

Firewood prices

fostertom — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:25:06 +0100

In a zero-impact world, every bit of the fallen material would rot in situ, or be eaten/poo'd out. Taking for firewood is fundamentally impactful, rucks up the forest floor, deprives habitat, buildup of soil fibre, and nutrients, slows, stops or reverses the natural increase and complexification of living systems. Composting is a way of robbing that benefit from the general biosphere and preferentially concentrating it in your garden. Burning simply vapourises much of the asset, which the atmosphere then has to use up yet more resources to process as pollutant. Only a little bit of it, the ash, may or may not be returned to a compost heap.

Just don't burn stuff, of any kind! Use the sun's 'free' heat instead.

Firewood prices

gustyturbine — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:29:52 +0100

Fostertom- have you got shares in Soltan?

Firewood prices

Jonti — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:02:56 +0100

Fostertom,

in an impact free world we would not live in houses. Even breathing has an impact. Solar panels are using energy that would otherwise have been disapated into the natural world.

If there is a forest fire do you consider that impact neutral? Were all wood left to rot the number forest fires would increase as well.

Jonti

Firewood prices

fostertom — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:38:05 +0100

Posted By: JontiEven breathing has an impact

No - it's taken care of within primeval natural cycles.

Posted By: JontiSolar panels are using energy that would otherwise have been disapated into the natural world

True - that's why solar is in principle zero-impact - the dissipation is merely postponed as you've intercepted the cycle. Actually, that's not quite true - solar panels are by definition unusually absorbent, compared to typical reflectivity of 'normal' objects, so they do increase the planet's temp by a smidgeon, in order for it to be able to re-emit to space all that it receives.

Posted By: JontiIf there is a forest fire do you consider that impact neutral?

Yes- again, it's taken care of within primeval natural cycles.

Posted By: JontiWere all wood left to rot the number forest fires would increase as well.

True, but they'd be small, self-limiting ones. Whereas half a century of 'forest management' and zero-tolerance of forest fires has left forests unnaturally full of dead 'fuel', which is why nowadays forest fires are so catastrophic when they do take hold. There's a whole new way of thinking in forestry, as a result of this realisation.

Firewood prices

SteamyTea — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:08:56 +0100

Posted By: dicksterhow many Kwhours worth is in a MJ or GJ?

1MJ = 0.278 kWh
Divide Joules by 3600 (seconds in an hour)

Firewood prices

dickster — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:49:47 +0100

Thank you S Tea

Firewood prices

finny — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:07:54 +0100

My desktop fuel cost comparator says heating oil at 60 pence per litre is equivalent to electricity at 6.85 pence per Kwh is equivalent to wood at 240 pounds per tonne at 20% moisture, 185 pounds per tonne at 35% moisture or 133 pounds per tonne at 50% moisture. Hope that helps..

Firewood prices

Jonti — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:10:43 +0100

Ah Fostertom,

taken care of in 'primeval natural cycles'? Wot tosh!!!!

I am not trying to pick an argument with you but would point out the following

Has there been any research into what, if any detrimental effects solar panels have on the environment? Not as far as I am aware. GSHP are also thought by many to be only positive but there are some who are concerned about the lowering of ground temperature that they cause and its long term implications. I would also suggest that the emissions from forest fires are just the same as from a WBS.

Jonti

You are incorrect to think that all ancient forest fires were small contained affairs. Many were not.

Firewood prices

Peter_in_Hungary — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:01:32 +0100

SteamyTea said "If we allow for 15% being air in a stacked pile"
Over here a forestry 1m3 of fire wood is logs cut 1m long and stacked 1m wide and 1.7m high. Apparently someone at some time worked out that to get a solid 1m3 of wood you needed 1.7m high to allow for the gaps.

BTW firewood prices here are 35 GB pounds for a forestry 1m3 of logs and 26 GB pounds for a 1m3 box for oven ready logs (split and cut to 30cm) thrown in without any stacking. For context the minimum wage here is 1.2 GB pounds / hour

Firewood prices

SteamyTea — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:11:54 +0100

Posted By: JontiHas there been any research into what, if any detrimental effects solar panels have on the environment?

Not that I know of other than land usage change, which is possibly having a larger affect on climate than CO2 emission.
Would be interesting to see if there is a local weather effect associated with them. More or Less cumulo nimbus maybe.
It will defiantly have had an effect on local wildlife, water run off/absorption, pollen levels, nitrates, CO2 absorption/sequestration and so forth.

Changes to land/habitat are hard to compare as they are, by very nature price except, not as if bees and bunnies use cash. We can put a price on it as humans though in a number of different ways.

How much are we prepared to pay for the loss.
How much are we willing to pay to preserve.
How much are we willing to pay for the change,
How much are we willing to pay for alternatives.
How much are we willing to pay to export the problem.
How much are we willing to pay to import the problem.

Firewood prices

SteamyTea — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:17:35 +0100

So at the moment we have: (From what Peter says 1 solid m^3 is really 1.7m^3 delivered, have I got that right, is that what the 'forestry' means)

Jonti Â£55/m^3 plus Â£10 delivery
Gotanewlife Â£91.30/tonne
Richy Â£50/m^3
Owlman Â£30/tonne (Â£68/tonne processed)
Dickster Â£87.5/tonne (estimate)
JSHarris Â£122/tonne (estimate)
Daysleeper Â£76.92/m^3
Billt Â£41/m^3 (September)
Billt Â£54/m^3 (October)
Pete_in_Hungry Â£35/m^3

Firewood prices

JSHarris — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:31:21 +0100

Posted By: SteamyTea
Posted By: JontiHas there been any research into what, if any detrimental effects solar panels have on the environment?

Not that I know of other than land usage change, which is possibly having a larger affect on climate than CO2 emission.
Would be interesting to see if there is a local weather effect associated with them. More or Less cumulo nimbus maybe.
It will defiantly have had an effect on local wildlife, water run off/absorption, pollen levels, nitrates, CO2 absorption/sequestration and so forth.

Changes to land/habitat are hard to compare as they are, by very nature price except, not as if bees and bunnies use cash. We can put a price on it as humans though in a number of different ways.

How much are we prepared to pay for the loss.
How much are we willing to pay to preserve.
How much are we willing to pay for the change,
How much are we willing to pay for alternatives.
How much are we willing to pay to export the problem.
How much are we willing to pay to import the problem.

There's bound to be a big local climate effect, at the micro level, from PV installations. I first learned to fly gliders, around 35 years years ago now, and the lift over large concrete structures, or especially sewerage farms, was quite noticeable.

A big PV array (the field sized arrays) will be kicking a lot of heat into the air above it, more than 80% of the energy from the sun hitting the panels will be heating the air around the panels, rather than being absorbed into the ground. This must have some effect on climate, but whether it's significant in the overall scheme of things I don't know.

Firewood prices

Jonti — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:42:05 +0100

ST, JSHarris,

both interesting answers with many good points. I am not against solar but it just puts my back up when people go on about how bad one method is totally ignoring any good points whilst pushing a second method as being perfect whilst ignoring any negatives. In order to build an intelligent consensus it needs well balanced, intelligent discussion not blind dogma

Jonti

Firewood prices

fostertom — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:45:31 +0100

Posted By: JSHarrisA big PV array (the field sized arrays) will be kicking a lot of heat into the air above it, more than 80% of the energy from the sun hitting the panels will be heating the air around the panels, rather than being absorbed into the ground

Surely, PV or wet panels absorb more heat and duct it away, compared to 'normal' surfaces. Don't tell me that 2m2 of field absorbs more solar energy than a panel - if so the panel manufs have a thing or two to learn!

Firewood prices

JSHarris — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:53:27 +0100

Posted By: fostertom
Posted By: JSHarrisA big PV array (the field sized arrays) will be kicking a lot of heat into the air above it, more than 80% of the energy from the sun hitting the panels will be heating the air around the panels, rather than being absorbed into the ground
Surely, PV or wet panels absorb more heat and duct it away, compared to 'normal' surfaces. Don't tell me that 2m2 of field absorbs more solar energy than a panel - if so the panel manufs have a thing or two to learn!

First law of thermodynamics kicks in...........

In simple terms. Sunlight hitting the ground, say a field, ends up going three ways. Some gets used by photosynthesis, and used by the grass (about 6%). Some gets reflected/radiated/convected back into the air (I don't know how much for sure, but would guess at maybe 50% or so) and some gets absorbed into the ground and used to heat the underlying soil (the remainder).

Now, if there is a PV panel suspended above the ground, around 16% of the sunlight will be converted to electricity and taken away to be used elsewhere as electricity and virtually all of the remaining sunlight will be transmitted to the surrounding air as heat (a small amount will be radiated from the underside of the panel to the ground).

Overall, the net air heating effect from an array of PV panels will have to be greater than that from a field of grass, because the panels are more effective at heating the surrounding air (they aren't in thermal contact with the ground, so can only lose a small amount of heat in that direction from radiation from their lower surfaces).

Firewood prices

Peter_in_Hungary — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:21:40 +0100

SteamyTea So at the moment we have: (From what Peter says 1 solid m^3 is really 1.7m^3 delivered, have I got that right, is that what the 'forestry' means)

Yes, it is called 'forestry' m3 to distinguish it from any other type of m3.

I have a friend who, with a property in Italy, drives his lorry from Hungary to Italy loaded with fire wood to sell and he reckons the extra price pays for the trip.(ref Gotanewlife Â£91.30/tonne) No comment about the environmental cost of this exercise!!
Peter

Firewood prices

SteamyTea — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:23:25 +0100

Anyone know who I could contact to do a PhD in this. Would take in 2 of my favourite things, Weather and Solar.

Firewood prices

fostertom — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:29:20 +0100

JSH, I realised that overnight (sad!) - the ground and other heavy objects absorb a lot and re-emit it at night, whereas panels don't have that thermal capacity so do everything 'now'.

Firewood prices

Brianwilson — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:06:06 +0100

We are aware bulk woodchip is 19% air plus water, pellets require energy input for moisture removal ( understood to have 6-8% water content) and energy input needed to maintain condition in bulk storage so question becomes which is preferred form for transporting fuel thousands of miles to UK?

Firewood prices

JSHarris — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:23:39 +0100

Posted By: BrianwilsonWe are aware bulk woodchip is 19% air plus water, pellets require energy input for moisture removal ( understood to have 6-8% water content) and energy input needed to maintain condition in bulk storage so question becomes which is preferred form for transporting fuel thousands of miles to UK?

By sea is probably the most environmentally friendly way of transporting it, I'd have thought. In fact, transporting things like fuel, that are more or less continuous demand cargoes, by water, whether inland or off shore makes a lot of sense. It's a pity our canal network doesn't carry more stuff like this, as it's a pretty fuel efficient way of delivering bulky cargo, where delivery journey time isn't important.

Because speed isn't important (all that matters is that the flow rate of cargo matches the demand) building solar powered, slow, cargo ships might even be an option. The power needed to propel a ship goes up in proportion to the cube of its speed, so a ship that travels at 10kts, rather than 20kts, only uses 1/8th of the power.

Firewood prices

renewablejohn — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:57:34 +0100

Posted By: BrianwilsonWe are aware bulk woodchip is 19% air plus water, pellets require energy input for moisture removal ( understood to have 6-8% water content) and energy input needed to maintain condition in bulk storage so question becomes which is preferred form for transporting fuel thousands of miles to UK?

Torrefied Wood Pellets MC 2-3% Energy equivalent to coal

Firewood prices

Gotanewlife — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:51:26 +0100

Here (Mid Italy) I have a friend who has a Hungarian wife and a wood business here (her family run a big wood business in Hungry) who imports most of his wood (structural) from Hungry, but fills up any space on the lorries with firewood sold in wooden crates by the M3. I'll ask him what he sells it for tomorrow as I will see him.

Firewood prices

Gotanewlife — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:52:25 +0100

PS - there seem to be 2 threads running here and only one of them is about the price of firewood!!!

Firewood prices

Joiner — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 07:24:09 +0100

Firewood prices

CWatters — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:16:39 +0100

Central/east England we are charged between Â£80 for green logs to Â£120 for "seasoned" both "per pickup truck load".

Firewood prices

orangemannot — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:39:45 +0100

Having had occassion to look in on the Arb forum, I do despair of the organic shambolic confusing marketing of firewood, why why why not simply market it per m3, and no guys a builders bag is NOT a m3, despite the apparent belief that because it is rated as a tonne bag it will hold a m3,.....& scratches head in disbelief.
Plus the not uncommon inability to work ot the cubic capacity of a rectangular/cuboid trailer.
I pity the average wood buyer.
If I ever get round to selling firewood it will be in bulk bags, of stated dimensions & capacity, and ideally 1m3, with a tethered moisture meter so that the customer may check moisture content themselves.
But cash sales only, with a proper reciept of course.
Right , wheres my halo?