Green Building Forum - Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

CWatters — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:53:44 +0100

The BBC program Country File had two sections on wind power last night. Can be viewed here for a few days...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b016c3vm/Countryfile_16_10_2011/

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

JSHarris — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:01:26 +0100

Seemed a reasonably well balanced report to me. It was interesting to see the National Grid segment, with the chap discussing electricity import/export as a way of tackling the mismatch between wind generated electricity production peaks and UK demand peaks. He seemed to be suggesting that a large scale grid, covering many nations, could act as a dynamic storage capability, with the momentary excess in one country being used by countries with a momentary deficit to allow best use of available power. It was also interesting to learn that even with the modest amount of wind generation we have now they need to shut down wind generators when they are producing more power than the grid can absorb.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

tony — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:14:38 +0100

I think he may have meant to say that they have to be shut down when it gets too windy because they tear themselves apart.

Sad not to heat any mention of Tidal turbines (my underwater windmills) in tidal races.

Also from the recent discussions on here it would seem like biomass was the govts main hope, not wind.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

JSHarris — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:35:12 +0100

Posted By: tonyI think he may have meant to say that they have to be shut down when it gets too windy because they tear themselves apart.

Sad not to heat any mention of Tidal turbines (my underwater windmills) in tidal races.

Also from the recent discussions on here it would seem like biomass was the govts main hope, not wind.

Maybe, but it did seem to me that local grid power absorption capability may have been the reason for shutting down wind generation when the power couldn't be distributed. My (limited) understanding of the grid leads me to believe that they have pretty tight limits on how much power they can put in to any node, because of the statutory requirement to maintain frequency within tight limits (frequency stability being determined by load).

I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why we haven't exploited tidal power more effectively. There are several good locations around the UK, and I'm not convinced that the installation costs can be that different from offshore wind, so perhaps its just that the companies involved are sticking with technology they know, for risk mitigation.

Personally I hope that the government has come to its senses over biomass, and has now realised that it can only ever produce a tiny proportion of the total energy we need. It does fill a useful niche, in that biomass can generate energy that can be stored in the form of fuels, but, unless we find ways of farming biomass at sea we simply don't have enough land area in the UK (or Europe, come to that) to grow both fuel and food in the quantities we need.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

Joiner — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:37:14 +0100

The wind section runs from 8 mins in, and is in two sections, the second running from 20 mins.

They're reporting on the pylons needed next Sunday, a subject also covered by "Costing The Earth", Radio 4, Wednesday at 9 pm.

Agree, a well balanced report within its contstraints.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

Brianwilson — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:38:00 +0100

Why are we failing to incorporate hydrogen creation in each of the large wind turbine arrays when aware this would allow us to maximise clean power. A power plant positioned on land adjacent to array could be fired by hydrogen allowing grid capacity to be maximised at all times. The argument that hydrogen production is energy intensive is negated by the fact that we are already deliberately shutting down wind turbine operations because of lack of storage.Surely we should maximise use of clean energy especially when source is free and renewable.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

renewablejohn — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:12:08 +0100

Posted By: JSHarris
Posted By: tony

Also from the recent discussions on here it would seem like biomass was the govts main hope, not wind.

Personally I hope that the government has come to its senses over biomass, and has now realised that it can only ever produce a tiny proportion of the total energy we need. It does fill a useful niche, in that biomass can generate energy that can be stored in the form of fuels, but, unless we find ways of farming biomass at sea we simply don't have enough land area in the UK (or Europe, come to that) to grow both fuel and food in the quantities we need.

Tony

I must of missed the discussion of the Lackmann report all I saw was a load of figures banging on about the existing amount of energy we are using which any rational person knows is totally unsustainable due to the exceedingly inefficient technology we presently use.

JSH

Maybe the government has the intellect to critically appraise the Lackmann report and reach a similar conclusion that given 30% penetration of wind and PV the balance given the sort of technology referred to in the Lackmann report could be provided by biomass distributed by the existing gas grid.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

ted — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:20:22 +0100

Some wind turbines in Scotland had to be shut down last month because they were producing more than the local grid could take.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

renewablejohn — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:22:01 +0100

Posted By: BrianwilsonWhy are we failing to incorporate hydrogen creation in each of the large wind turbine arrays when aware this would allow us to maximise clean power. A power plant positioned on land adjacent to array could be fired by hydrogen allowing grid capacity to be maximised at all times. The argument that hydrogen production is energy intensive is negated by the fact that we are already deliberately shutting down wind turbine operations because of lack of storage.Surely we should maximise use of clean energy especially when source is free and renewable.

Brian

We already have a large pumped storage facility in the UK with a couple more schemes proposed by SSE in Scotland which are going through at the moment. Hydrogen is a none starter due to its poor efficiency and the existence already of more efficient mass flywheel technology which is being used in America.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

renewablejohn — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:31:05 +0100

Posted By: tedSome wind turbines in Scotland had to be shut down last month because they were producing more than the local grid could take.

A lot of turbines were approved on the basis that the new supergrid lines would be installed prior to the turbines generating, obviously this has not been the case due to the protracted arguments over the supergrid routes.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

CWatters — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:33:44 +0100

This report is worth a read...

http://www.jmt.org/assets/pdf/wind-report.pdf

The surprise is how frequently the whole of the UK is becalmed.

During the study period, wind generation was:
â€¢ below 20% of capacity more than half the time.
â€¢ below 10% of capacity over one third of the time.
â€¢ below 2.5% capacity for the equivalent of one day in twelve.
â€¢ below 1.25% capacity for the equivalent of just under one day a month.

They aren't talking about individual turbines but the whole UK fleet output.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

renewablejohn — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:32:21 +0100

Posted By: CWattersThis report is worth a read...

http://www.jmt.org/assets/pdf/wind-report.pdf" rel="nofollow" >http://www.jmt.org/assets/pdf/wind-report.pdf

The surprise is how frequently the whole of the UK is becalmed.

During the study period, wind generation was:
â€¢ below 20% of capacity more than half the time.
â€¢ below 10% of capacity over one third of the time.
â€¢ below 2.5% capacity for the equivalent of one day in twelve.
â€¢ below 1.25% capacity for the equivalent of just under one day a month.

They aren't talking about individual turbines but the whole UK fleet output.

Interesting report although at times a little abuse of statistics to prove a particular point. I have always used a conservative 20% generation figure rather than the 30% quoted by the turbine manufacturers so not a real surprise there. Be interesting to find out post Jul 10 figures with the whole of UK rather than just Scotland. Also no mention of using interconnectors rather than pumped storage to average wind generation throughout europe.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

djh — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:42:55 +0100

Posted By: renewablejohn
Posted By: BrianwilsonWhy are we failing to incorporate hydrogen creation in each of the large wind turbine arrays

We already have a large pumped storage facility in the UK with a couple more schemes proposed by SSE in Scotland which are going through at the moment. Hydrogen is a none starter due to its poor efficiency and the existence already of more efficient mass flywheel technology which is being used in America.

But nevertheless

Posted By: tedSome wind turbines in Scotland had to be shut down last month because they were producing more than the local grid could take.

So evidently the existing pumped storage schemes don't solve the problem. Will the proposed schemes avoid future shutdowns of Scottish turbines? And how likely are they to be built?

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

JSHarris — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:54:46 +0100

Posted By: renewablejohnJSH

Maybe the government has the intellect to critically appraise the Lackmann report and reach a similar conclusion that given 30% penetration of wind and PV the balance given the sort of technology referred to in the Lackmann report could be provided by biomass distributed by the existing gas grid.

Maybe you should just give us the yield figures we've been asking for to prove your point, rather than repeatedly quoting a report that doesn't contradict the hypothesis that we don't have anything like enough land area to meet our energy needs from growing biomass.

How about it, John? Any units you choose; just let us know the net energy yield per hectare for your wood pellets. Its a simple question and might just convince us doubters we've got things wrong.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

renewablejohn — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 13:18:40 +0100

Posted By: djh
Posted By: renewablejohn
Posted By: BrianwilsonWhy are we failing to incorporate hydrogen creation in each of the large wind turbine arrays

We already have a large pumped storage facility in the UK with a couple more schemes proposed by SSE in Scotland which are going through at the moment. Hydrogen is a none starter due to its poor efficiency and the existence already of more efficient mass flywheel technology which is being used in America.

But nevertheless
Posted By: tedSome wind turbines in Scotland had to be shut down last month because they were producing more than the local grid could take.

So evidently the existing pumped storage schemes don't solve the problem. Will the proposed schemes avoid future shutdowns of Scottish turbines? And how likely are they to be built?

Its not the pumped storage which is the problem its the actual grid which needs upgrading see report below.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2010/01/06141510

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

gustyturbine — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:27:31 +0100

Renewablejohn- For a well positioned site 20% is low. I would say high 20's is a good site and low 30's is a very well positioned site. Low 20's would be Fenland sites etc. Keep wind power for areas that can produce more power from it. I do not see the point in lowering the capacity factor of turbines just to tick the box,
Gusty.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

Brianwilson — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:17:28 +0100

Pumped storage is a possible storage solution in Scotland and Wales but suitable topography for this technology becomes a problem with major turbine arrays in England. Integrated energy conversion adjacent to major arrays would facilitate maximum use of resources and enable best use of grid.
With large arrays proposed for East coast a possibility would appear to be a barrage across the Wash with suitable lagoons allowing pumped storage for covering periods of slack tide.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

SteamyTea — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:11:19 +0100

There are better places to do it.
Cromer
YEARS 2008 TO 2026
HIGHEST ASTRONOMICAL TIDE 5.74 m
MEAN HIGH WATER SPRINGS 5.10 m
MEAN HIGH WATER NEAPS 4.06 m
MEAN LOW WATER NEAPS 1.97 m
MEAN LOW WATER SPRINGS 0.87 m
LOWEST ASTRONOMICAL TIDE 0.22

Dover
YEARS 2008 TO 2026
HIGHEST ASTRONOMICAL TIDE 7.27 m
MEAN HIGH WATER SPRINGS 6.69 m
MEAN HIGH WATER NEAPS 5.40 m
MEAN LOW WATER NEAPS 2.14 m
MEAN LOW WATER SPRINGS 0.87 m
LOWEST ASTRONOMICAL TIDE 0.24

Ilfracombe
YEARS 2008 TO 2026
HIGHEST ASTRONOMICAL TIDE 10.26 m
MEAN HIGH WATER SPRINGS 9.27 m
MEAN HIGH WATER NEAPS 6.99 m
MEAN LOW WATER NEAPS 3.11 m
MEAN LOW WATER SPRINGS 0.86 m
LOWEST ASTRONOMICAL TIDE -0.09

And the real gem
Avonmouth
YEARS 2008 TO 2026
HIGHEST ASTRONOMICAL TIDE 14.65 m
MEAN HIGH WATER SPRINGS 13.33 m
MEAN HIGH WATER NEAPS 9.99 m
MEAN LOW WATER NEAPS 3.78 m
MEAN LOW WATER SPRINGS 1.06 m
LOWEST ASTRONOMICAL TIDE -0.20

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

renewablejohn — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:37:06 +0100

Posted By: BrianwilsonPumped storage is a possible storage solution in Scotland and Wales but suitable topography for this technology becomes a problem with major turbine arrays in England. Integrated energy conversion adjacent to major arrays would facilitate maximum use of resources and enable best use of grid.
With large arrays proposed for East coast a possibility would appear to be a barrage across the Wash with suitable lagoons allowing pumped storage for covering periods of slack tide.

When it comes to pumped storage head height is critical. The most suitable english locations would be to reuse redundant deep dry coal mines linked to a reservoir on the surface. Similar to the chalk caverns on the east coast used for gas storage.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

SteamyTea — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:42:01 +0100

Posted By: renewablejohnThe most suitable english locations would be to reuse redundant deep dry coal mines linked to a reservoir on the surface

I don't think so as the environmental damage would be horrific to aquifers. There is a reason that the Red River is Red.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

renewablejohn — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:43:30 +0100

Posted By: gustyturbineRenewablejohn- For a well positioned site 20% is low. I would say high 20's is a good site and low 30's is a very well positioned site. Low 20's would be Fenland sites etc. Keep wind power for areas that can produce more power from it. I do not see the point in lowering the capacity factor of turbines just to tick the box,
Gusty.

When I am spending 600k on a turbine it needs to tick the box at 20% as I cannot guarantee the government keeping the fit's rates as high in the future.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

JSHarris — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:46:26 +0100

Posted By: SteamyTeaI don't think so as the environmental damage would be horrific to aquifers. There is a reason that the Red River is Red.

Very true. Another example is the area under the cliff at Portreath, below where Nancekuke used to be, where the adit overflow has killed off all the marine growth on the surrounding rocks.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

renewablejohn — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:47:42 +0100

Posted By: SteamyTea
Posted By: renewablejohnThe most suitable english locations would be to reuse redundant deep dry coal mines linked to a reservoir on the surface

I don't think so as the environmental damage would be horrific to aquifers. There is a reason that the Red River is Red.

Not if its a closed loop reservoir

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

SteamyTea — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:53:47 +0100

Posted By: JSHarrisAnother example is the area under the cliff at Portreath

Funny bunch there, The St. Agnes lot made a story about fertility rights and bullying landlords about pollution.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

SteamyTea — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:55:21 +0100

Posted By: renewablejohnNot if its a closed loop reservoir

Cheaper and easier to build them on mountains and in valleys I would have thought than waterproofing an old mine.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

JSHarris — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:57:33 +0100

Posted By: renewablejohnNot if its a closed loop reservoir

The problem is, as the frackers have found to their cost, it is extremely difficult to prevent seepage into aquifers. Flooded mine workings have a pretty horrific record for causing pollution, both of aquifers and of surface watercourses. The nature of coal seams mean they, and the rock around them, will be cracked and porous to some degree, making sealing old workings hard. Add the stress of all that water pressure and it gets to be similar to low pressure fracking in some respects, as the water pressure would tend to want to open up fissures and crack the rocks further.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

SteamyTea — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:02:35 +0100

Centralia in PA shows what can happen when mining goes wrong, though they could dump a few million tonnes of water down there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKeljrwHqBU

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

fostertom — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:38:12 +0100

Posted By: JSHarrisas the frackers have found to their cost, it is extremely difficult to prevent seepage into aquifers

considered quite safe for 101% non-fail millenia-long deep storage of nuclear waste tho, without which the present nuclear expansion programme is unviable.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

renewablejohn — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:19:20 +0100

Posted By: JSHarris
Posted By: renewablejohnNot if its a closed loop reservoir

The problem is, as the frackers have found to their cost, it is extremely difficult to prevent seepage into aquifers. Flooded mine workings have a pretty horrific record for causing pollution, both of aquifers and of surface watercourses. The nature of coal seams mean they, and the rock around them, will be cracked and porous to some degree, making sealing old workings hard. Add the stress of all that water pressure and it gets to be similar to low pressure fracking in some respects, as the water pressure would tend to want to open up fissures and crack the rocks further.

Thats why it has to be deep mines below the level of aquifiers. Normally you get a layer of impermeable material above the deep coal hence the capture of natural gas.

Wind Power on BBC Countryfile

Joiner — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 22:11:39 +0100

And here's the next bit about pylons...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b016nf9n/Countryfile_23_10_2011/

In two parts that straddle the Ben Law project, they're at 10 minutes and 23 minutes.