Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!


powered by Surfing Waves




Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.

The AECB accepts no responsibility or liability for any errors or omissions in the content of this site. Views given in posts are not necessarily the views of the AECB.



    • CommentAuthoroiseaux
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2007
     
    My garden room plods on and I will soon be thinking of sealed units to 3 sides. I have read that the ideal s/u should have "Spectrally selective glass on the exterior and low e glass on the interior." Would you agree, and if so, what is the common name for these 2 types of glass.
  1.  
    Low-e is a spectrally selective coating. With double glazed units placing the coating on plane 3 (counting from the outside) gives you a higher solar heat gain. To make the most of passive solar in the winter placing the low-e on plane 3 is recommended. If a low-e coating is placed upon plane 2 then the solar gain is reduced thus impeding passive solar gains.
    Be very careful with west facing glazing as this could easily lead to over heating and discomfort.
    (You don't mention the roof of the garden room so I'll say this anyway, avoid glazing if you don't want to cook.)

    Mark
  2.  
    Hmmm. The low-e coating on surface 3 actually stops infra red radiation leaving the room. Basically (if you understand physics don't read this) some of the infra red radiation sets off from the glass surface and some sets off from the coating surface, which is cunningly placed half a wavelength further out. The two sets interfere with each other, cancelling each other out and nothing emerges. The energy goes off in the other direction back into your room. It doesn't actually have much effect on the incoming solar gain.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2007
     
    Biff, that was a very good explanation -- please could you expand on it a bit?
  3.  
    Not unless you understand quantum mechanics (which I don't).
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2007
     
    I do as it happens but I was more meaning in terms of what to do for max solar gain, max comfort, minimum gain etc

    My understanding of the coatings is that they let in infra red radiation in but dont let it out again. The effect being in heat loss terms the same as having the curtains drawn in the day.
  4.  
    Hope this is not to techy for others....

    Biff,
    I agree that a low-e coating on surface 3 stops infra red radiation leaving the room, however, I disagree about the low-e not having much of an impact upon the solar gains.
    As the solar gain is made up of two components, the radiant absorbed component and direct component, reducing the energy transmitted through the glazing in either one of these areas has an impact upon solar gain (and thermal comfort). Due to the partitioning characteristic of low-e coatings the radiant temperature of the glazing is affected by the location of the low-e coating. If the low-e is on plane 2 the infra red radiation is stopped from entering the room as it is reflected away (back to the external environment) before having the opportunity to be absorbed by the inner pane and thus entering the internal space. As a consequence the internal pane temperature is lower, as a consequence the solar gain is reduced. If one moves to triple glazing these effects become even more pronounced.
    So whilst the inappropriate location of the low-e coating will not have a large impact upon the U-value it can have a noticable impact upon the property of solar gain.

    Mark
  5.  
    And the moral of that is make sure the low-e coating is on surface 3, where it should be, and you didn't put the unit in back to front.

    ("the radiant absorbed component and direct component", Eh? Perhaps if you could be a bit more techie I'd be able to understand that.)
    • CommentAuthoroiseaux
    • CommentTimeNov 4th 2007
     
    Thanks for the replies. Just to make sure I am understanding Mark correctly, the low e coating, (has it got a technical or proprietary name) should be on the surface of the inner pane of glass which faces the spacer gap. Following on from Biffs recent comment, as I am buying sealed units only, how do I make sure that I am not putting them in the wrong way round, is there are marking or something indicating which pane has been treated.
  6.  
    That's right. When you get the units you should find that the manufacturer has put a little paper sticker on one side saying: "This must face in to the room" or some such. You can get an electronic detector that tells you which way round it is. Pilkington K is the commonest brand in England. In France you are probably getting something from St Gobain. There are two different types of low-e coating 'hard' and 'soft'. The hard coat (eg Pilkington K) is slightly cheaper and gives a slightly worse performance. Soft coat (eg Pilkington Optitherm) gives a slightly better performance but is delicate so requires special handling equipment when making up the sealed unit and is therefore more expensive. Not all unit manufacturers have the equipment so it's not so widely available.
  7.  
    "the radiant absorbed component and direct component"

    Oops. Edited a sentance into something confusing. Meant to say "the absorbed component and direct component" (the energy absorbed by the glazing leads to an increased radiant temperature.)

    Mark
    • CommentAuthoroiseaux
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2007
     
    Sorry to go on about this but following is a recent e I have received from a former manager of a UK double glazing company:


    Double glazed unit panes are numbered 1-4 (1 being the outside pane).
    For the radiation effect to take place, the coating needs to be on pane 2 (the inside of the outside pane).
    On a summers day, this coating will restrict the heat from the sun passing into the conservatory.
    In the Winter, the coating will only absorb 15 - 20 % of the heat in the room (as opposed to some 80% if none coated), the other 80 - 85 % of the heat will reflect back into the room.
    (If for instance, the coating is on pane 3, this would trap the suns heat and drive it inwards and could result in breakage due to thermal stress.)
    Therefore : With the coating on pane 2, the net result is less overall heat gain. In Winter, whilst there will be less heat gain during the day, there will be less heat lost at night, and in Summer the reverse applies.
    In my opinion, this is the best balance in a conservatory. "


    So, pane 2 or pane 3, breakage due to thermal stress, its all very confusing. Logic tells me that with the deliberately large overhanging eaves, heat gain through the glass in Summer shouldn't be a problem, but the non opening double glazed roof light might be. So should it be plane 3 for the "vertical" windows, and plane 2 for the roof light.?
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2007
     
    I wouldn't buy windows from that man (maybe that's why he is a FORMER manager.)
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeJan 30th 2016 edited
     
    Thanks for the above discussion, even if somewhat old.
    Today I'm resurrecting it, because we had low-E windows (4mm glass, Argon filling ) installed Summer 2015, all East- or West-facing, and the low-E is on Plane 2.

    (after a web search, I determined this by holding a lit match in front of the inner glazing, and the coated surface shows up RED and not yellow...).

    Pleased with these windows, we ordered a second round of south-facing windows -- we have "ventilated corners" some 20-odd years old, with hefty timber structures, that we decided to replace with a modern design) (like THIS...) http://www.natralight.co.uk/ventedcorner1.jpg

    We agreed with the vendor that these second-round South-facing vertical panes would be "turned inside out" to get maximum heating effect (heat retention in winter nights, and best solar gain on winter days), and that the roof lights (fixed) will be triple glazed, "not turned around", in order to minimize summertime glare and heat...

    [with our former "failed" DG, we could easily have 25°C in the lounge at midnight, in Summer...].

    We will also be having reflective (aluminized) inside blinds on the roof lights, and there is an option to fit sunbreakers ("brise-soleil") in the future if needed.

    I several times asked to see the technical specifications but to no avail.

    So now the inevitable has happened: yesterday (Friday) they arrived to demolish the KW (kitchen window) and the frame is now half-complete and the vertical glazing (= two panes, sliding opening, compression seals plus lateral tilt-and-turn with triangular fixed light over) is in: the two front panes are back-to-front (and I *mean* back-to-front...) (because the installers did not put them in B2F as agreed), so my match test shows the coating is on Plane 2 and not Plane 3.

    "Strangely Enough", the triangular fixed pane is OK - (coating on Plane 3).

    Of course, Being Me, I sneaked a look in their gear, and the triangular pane for the lounge (= east-facing of course...) is... coated on Plane *2* -- somebody cocked-up (can I say that on here ?) (? I suspect I've seen worse...) and cut the two triangles out of the same glass but forgot his geometry...).

    Not Told The Wife Yet...

    gg
  8.  
    Same thing happend to me when I ordered a DG unit with a triangular top to it - idiots got it wrong despite my careful instructions. It is a small window, under an overhang facing NW so only rarely gets sun and obliquely at that. Made the call to let it slide as relationship with supplier was and remains important to me and, as you say, there are actually advantages to this in my scenario - but if it had been a big one, facing SW here in Italy - no way. These things always require logical thought - not a 'they got it wrong so they should fix it' shot from the hip. There's always your time, knock-on delays to the building construction, potential bad faith from the supplier, esp if you don't have incontrovertible evidence of what was 'agreed' - but of course you can't risk exploding glass!!
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2016 edited
     
    Thank you, G-à-NL :bigsmile:
    Wise advice indeed, I shall follow / borrow it tomorrow !

    In effect, I have been thinking how to turn these "mistakes" to my advantage...
    In particular, I discovered a prima facie case of thermal bridging that would of itself and in any case negate any advantage from installing glass B2F...

    The piglet in this pig of a problem, is that I had an agreement from them to keep the best and biggest parts of the removed glazing, for another of my projects, and they broke all three of them (because they turned up a day late, two guys instead of four, no lifting gear etc.). First thing I said to them (after hello) was, I suppose you know that I am salvaging the glass; the reply was, "we will if we can".

    I ought to have said, right, we'll stop here until I've contacted your office...

    Ones lives and learns - I have some serious dialogue to prepare for tomorrow, watch this space...

    gg
Add your comments

    Username Password
  • Format comments as
 
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press