Green Building Forum - Does it matter how much energy we use? Wed, 09 Sep 2026 17:36:03 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132883#Comment_132883 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132883#Comment_132883 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 07:11:29 +0000 tony
Assuming that a person can afford the costs can they use as much energy or fuel as they like?

In a responsible society should there be some control?]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132884#Comment_132884 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132884#Comment_132884 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 07:26:14 +0000 Seret
Unfortunately the markets aren't sophisticated enough or willing to take those costs into account voluntarily, so the only way to do so would be through a regulatory framework (the kind of thinking that leads towards carbon trading). The trouble is that this level of government interference in the markets is anathema to many, and tbh there's a lot going for the idea of free markets, even if they don't always do what's of the greatest collective benefit to society.

My opinion: take the middle path. Leave the markets to set prices except in the most egregious cases of actual harm being proven. IMO coal would fall into the latter category, but the fact that we're so heavily committed to coal use means weaning ourselves will have to be a slow process.]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132885#Comment_132885 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132885#Comment_132885 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 07:31:24 +0000 JSHarris
My take on it would be that if we use more energy than we need to do anything, then we are both wasting a resource and potentially creating greater levels of atmospheric heating. Most energy we use ends up as heat and gets dissipated into the air one way or another (the exception being stuff we directly radiate to space, be it heat or some other wavelength).

Societal control is a tricky one. We already have this in some form (cars are taxed on the basis of fuel efficiency, building regs lay down energy efficiency standards for houses) so I suppose it comes down to "should there be more control?" perhaps. My view is that I'd like to see market forces drive energy efficiency, rather than use the blunt tool of regulation. If energy was made far more expensive then the majority of people would seek ways to reduce its use. That leaves the minority who are so wealthy that cost isn't a factor, and arguably this will be such a tiny proportion of the population that it probably doesn't have any significant effect.]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132888#Comment_132888 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132888#Comment_132888 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 07:35:11 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: tonyDoes it matter how much energy we use?
Not really
Posted By: tonyAssuming that a person can afford the costs can they use as much energy or fuel as they like?

The money filters down through the economy, so yeas they can
Posted By: tonyIn a responsible society should there be some control?

There is through the market already.

Now if you want to analyse secondary effects, ask a different question :wink:]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132889#Comment_132889 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132889#Comment_132889 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 07:47:46 +0000 Beau Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132891#Comment_132891 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132891#Comment_132891 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 09:02:18 +0000 Joiner
Mind you, raising prices (note, not RISING prices) would solve the problem of over-population in very short order.

What strikes me as odd is that in all these discussions on "energy" use, no one even gives a second thought to WOOD. What's going on there? Apart from those lucky enough to own their own woodland, of sufficient size to supply their own needs, others are noting the increasing scarcity and rising cost of fuel for their wood-burners due to increased demand from others of like-mind and the encroachment of biomass-fuel suppliers. :confused:]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132893#Comment_132893 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132893#Comment_132893 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 09:15:26 +0000 Seret Posted By: Joinerwhat previous posters seem to be saying is that they'd actually like to see MORE third-party interference in the "free market"

Can't speak for others, but that's not what I said. I said interference should generally be avoided.


What strikes me as odd is that in all these discussions on "energy" use, no one even gives a second thought to WOOD.


Er, bit of an assumption on your part there. Hands up who had forgotten about wood? Globally wood makes up the overwhelming majority of biomass consumed, even if it's less important here in the UK.]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132897#Comment_132897 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132897#Comment_132897 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 09:40:49 +0000 Joiner
In suggesting that "market forces" should operate to regulate energy use, and as market forces are already operating to regulate energy use, then the only way to get price to regulate use is for someone to step in and interfere in the working of the market forces - like a tax on petrol and diesel!

Er, wood, as in wood stoves... "the increasing scarcity and rising cost of fuel for their wood-burners due to increased demand from others of like-mind and the encroachment of biomass-fuel suppliers." Clear distinction there.

:neutral:]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132900#Comment_132900 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132900#Comment_132900 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 09:50:22 +0000 Brianwilson Reference energy use a report from SSE in press today details it’s customers had used 8.3% less electricity and 26.6% less gas in the nine months to end of 2011, compared with same period in 2010. Renewable output increased from 3.2 TWh to 5.3 TWh. Coal fired output increased 2.9 TWh and gas fired fell by 4.4TWh. Interesting point ,they confirm losing 50,000 customers over same period, no figure on customer base so what is true figure on energy reduction?]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132901#Comment_132901 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132901#Comment_132901 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 09:53:30 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: Joinerthen the only way to get price to regulate use is for someone to step in and interfere in the working of the market forces - like a tax on petrol and diesel!

Not sure I follow you here, price is set by supply and demand. This recession is showing that, the price of fuel is fairly stable, the supply is stable and the demand is stable, they all change slightly but nothing like they should as it is a huge global market. All that happens is that the goods are delivered to a different place. One way that the UK could generate more income is to get more coal out the ground, not sure why we don't from a money viewpoint (money and price are not the same).]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132905#Comment_132905 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132905#Comment_132905 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 10:04:20 +0000 Joiner
Ooooh dearie, dearie me. There's heresy for you!

"price is set by supply and demand" only in a truly free market. Need and ability to pay the going price regulate use.]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132909#Comment_132909 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132909#Comment_132909 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 10:19:30 +0000 fostertom Posted By: tonyDoes it matter how much energy we use?You cd start by checking the various end-products of energy use, whether they're beneficial or not. E.g. energy use to produce armaments - it does matter how much energy we use on that - less the better.

You cd also check the effects of energy production prior to use. Prob all more or less disastrous. E.g. shale oil/gas destroys swathes of natural environment - the less use therefore production of that, the better.

And consumption of finite resources. E.g. oil more valuable longterm as material feedstock, than as fuel. To greatly reduce the rate of depletion of finite resources that we'll need as a trickle for a long time, less use as energy the better.

Then the downstream waste-effect of energy use. Hi-grade (lo-entropy) energy, whether from burning fuel, or from 'renewable' sources is carelessly dissipated into lo-grade (hi-entropy) 'waste' heat which is no good to anyone and is just dumped as rubbish into the biosphere, regardless of effect.

That dumped extra energy, which the planet has to get rid of, results in a slight increase in biosphere equilibrium temp, at which the required higher heat flow-rate into space is attained. So far that's not been seen as a problem, so prob not a reason to use less energy.

However, one portion of that extra energy, the bit that comes from burning fuel, causes a disastrous multiplication of the effect of the dumped energy, by creating greenhouse gasses hand-in-glove with the energy's production (by burning), therefore hand-in-glove with its use. So the less use of burnt-fuel-derived energy the better; no such restriction on 'renewable'-derived energy. Where biomass-burning fits into that spectrum, is another debate! Ditto nuclear.

Overall, it's burnt-fuel-derived energy (especially fossil) that causes the overwhelming problem, which has to be stopped almost completely. As it's the world's overwhelming present source, that's a tall order.

Unfortunately, too much focus is on replacement 'clean' energy sources, which rapidly leads to the conclusion that nothing (except perhaps nuclear) can come close to replacing fossil - so it's hopeless, so business-as-usual, with a bit of carbon-capture etc maybe.

The focus should instead be on energy-use reduction all round - like 80% demand-reduction worldwide. Then relatively harmless 'renewables' stand a chance of being sufficient. Such demand-reduction is seen as even more hopeless that energy source replacement, so again it's business-as-usual, with a bit of building insulation etc maybe.

But the potential for demand reduction has hardly been explored, with a will - mainly because of the focus instead on source-replacement (even novice 'greenies' think it's all about solar panels and other add-on gadgets, rather than fundamental building design, or even full-blown Permaculture-type understanding). David MacKay is guilty of this inadequacy, and his thinking is about as 'advanced' as any government has so far taken on board.

The biggest, and least explored route to massive demand reduction is, as mentioned above
"Hi-grade (lo-entropy) energy, whether from burning fuel, or from 'renewable' sources is carelessly dissipated into lo-grade (hi-entropy) 'waste' heat which is no good to anyone".
Energy use can be a cascade, from energy's hi-grade (lo-entropy) starting form, the waste heat from that being conserved as hot as possible (hi-ish grade, lo-ish-entropy), so can be usefully used as input by the next process down the chain, and so on down to prob building space-heating or algae-tanks as happy with lo-ish-grade, hi-ish-entropy energy input.

In that way 4 or 5 energy uses can be squeezed out of one original tranche of hi-grade energy input. Instead of all taking a tranche of hi-grade energy and carelessly dissipating not only its energy content (as 4 or 5 times as much waste heat dumped to atmosphere), but more to the point, 4 or 5 times as much lo-entropy resource.

Entropy thinking is the key - and we have to admit no-one's even begun on that, really.

So massive demand reduction is the key, and is possible - hence, yes it does matter how much energy we use. Human survival depends on it, until such time as 'limitless' 'clean' energy sources become available. At that point, prob doesn't matter how much energy we use - but don't bank on it, for the foreseeable.]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132911#Comment_132911 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132911#Comment_132911 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 10:24:20 +0000 Joiner ]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132912#Comment_132912 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132912#Comment_132912 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 10:28:31 +0000 fostertom
Energy demand reduction is not in itself an absolute necessity, but it is the necessary tactic, for the foreseeable, to bring demand down to what's feasible for 'renewables' to supply.]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132913#Comment_132913 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132913#Comment_132913 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 10:35:45 +0000 Seret Posted By: Joiner
In suggesting that "market forces" should operate to regulate energy use, and as market forces are already operating to regulate energy use, then the only way to get price to regulate use is for someone to step in and interfere in the working of the market forces - like a tax on petrol and diesel!


Not at all. The price of fossil fuels (for example) is bound to trend upwards due to restricted supply, which will eventually squeeze demand. Just look at the fate of oil-fired power stations in the UK, it's hard to imagine a time now when oil was so cheap that it was economical to build those. Even now I don't think the few left online are used for anything other than peaking loads, which points to how uneconomical they are.

Petrol and diesel will eventually become too expensive for ordinary people to run their cars on, and the market will have seen that coming and acted to reduce demand or switch fuels long before then. It's happening already, just look at how much of a headline issue fuel economy has become for new cars.]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132915#Comment_132915 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132915#Comment_132915 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 10:43:48 +0000 pmagowan Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132922#Comment_132922 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132922#Comment_132922 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 11:12:08 +0000 Ed Davies
A: Not always. If I walk on the sunny side of the street to keep warm then the extra energy I “use” doesn't matter.

Q: Does it matter how much of anything we use if the production, use or disposal of that thing causes harm to others?

A: Yes.]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132927#Comment_132927 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132927#Comment_132927 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 11:41:29 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: JoinerOoooh dearie, dearie me. There's heresy for you!
From an ethical viewpoint it is, not from an economical one though.

Posted By: Joiner"price is set by supply and demand" only in a truly free market. Need and ability to pay the going price regulate use.

The need and ability to pay is part of the supply and demand, just sets a new market price.

Another way to look at this is how much would you be willing to be compensated for not using energy, would you want more money per kWh if you used less than a set amount or less money. Would be easy to work out what it is really worth then. I get a discount on my bill because I used less than 90% of the previous year. Think it was a couple of quid, so no incentive there to change.
The people that have installed PV rather set a trend here.

Take electricity, and if we had an 'all inclusive' price, do people have a view on what it should be per kWh.
How about gas, oil, REs. Should they all be the same price?]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132933#Comment_132933 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132933#Comment_132933 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 12:02:14 +0000 Joiner ]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132943#Comment_132943 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132943#Comment_132943 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 12:37:03 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: JoinerWhere's the free market competitive element in that lot?
Right
The mechanism to balance the grid is based on an auction to supply. Whoever can supply, to the required standard, for the cheapest price, does so. If the customer, then wishes to pay another supplier to disconnect, they are free to do so. The net result is the cheapest energy to the required quality.
I think there is a debate to be had on the standard of quality, but not the free market in the energy sector.]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132944#Comment_132944 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132944#Comment_132944 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 12:55:29 +0000 Seret Posted By: JoinerThe incentive to export pv-generated stuff will be there whether the demand is there for it or not, we're still paying for it. Likewise wind, which we're all paying for whether the turbines are turning or not, when they're off because the grid can't take it and we're paying the operators £millions to do it, when we're effectively paying for what we're not getting. Where's the free market competitive element in that lot?https:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/confused.gif" alt=":confused:" title=":confused:" >

Renewable generators sell both their energy and their ROCs on an open market, where supply and demand set the price they get. What's the problem? That they're subsidised? Sure, but that won't last forever, the government are just using subsidies to distort the market and encourage investment to speed up uptake. But to say that supply and demand don't affect renewables is not correct.]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132948#Comment_132948 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132948#Comment_132948 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 13:10:58 +0000 djh http://withbotheyesopen.com/

Allwood is speaking in Cambridge tonight.]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132952#Comment_132952 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132952#Comment_132952 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 13:42:34 +0000 MarkBennett Posted By: JoinerThe incentive to export pv-generated stuff will be there whether the demand is there for it or not, we're still paying for it.

I disagree with that statement. There is plenty of incentive to generate electricity from PV, ( I suspect even with the reduced FIT rate) but there is very little incentive to export it. Using the energy locally rather than exporting it is by far the most cost effective use.

Witness the number of times that the issue of cleverly controlled PV driven immersion heaters used to minimise export has come up here and on other related forums.]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132970#Comment_132970 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132970#Comment_132970 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 15:44:40 +0000 jamesingram could be considered directly related to the exponential increase in enrgy use.

Do we need to increase our energy use to continue to develope ?]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132977#Comment_132977 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132977#Comment_132977 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 16:05:31 +0000 Seret Posted By: jamesingramI remember seeing somewhere that the last 100 odd years of exponential scientific developement
could be considered directly related to the exponential increase in enrgy use.

Do we need to increase our energy use to continue to develope ?

I don't know about energy use related to scientific progress, but in terms of economic development GDP and energy consumption are proportional up to a certain point (which escapes my memory just at the moment), above which it decouples. This is due to more developed nations "dematerialising" their economies, such as you get in the UK where loads of money is generated by services that can generate lots of economic activity without consuming extra resources. Societies lower down the development index still have much of their economic growth linked to industries that consume energy and resources to create output.

It's also worth noting that while countries do follow a similar pattern as they develop those that industrialised later (eg: Japan) managed to consume much less energy to do so than early industrialisers such as the UK. So the BRICs should be able to reach Western levels of development more efficiently than we did, and eventually their energy consumption should decouple from their growth.]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132979#Comment_132979 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132979#Comment_132979 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 16:10:07 +0000 fostertom Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132990#Comment_132990 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132990#Comment_132990 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 18:21:34 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: fostertomWe can do more and better and cleverer things using energy
Very true, but it involves economies of scale, which goes against the ethos of 'green' unfortunately.
Imagine 50 'artisan' cheesemakers each responsible for their own generation, waste disposal, transport, sourcing materials etc. Would just end up with 50 people out of work as it is just not possible at that level.]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132992#Comment_132992 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132992#Comment_132992 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 18:26:38 +0000 Joiner Have you got a little book of 'Handy Analogies' always to hand?]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132993#Comment_132993 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132993#Comment_132993 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 18:28:10 +0000 SteamyTea Blessed are the cheesemakers though, bless :wink:]]> Does it matter how much energy we use? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132998#Comment_132998 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8524&Focus=132998#Comment_132998 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 19:03:49 +0000 Joiner ]]>