Green Building Forum - Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer Sat, 02 May 2026 11:01:39 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133871#Comment_133871 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133871#Comment_133871 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 11:00:39 +0000 renewablejohn Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133873#Comment_133873 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133873#Comment_133873 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 11:06:10 +0000 renewablejohn
http://i40.tinypic.com/2a5yyy8.jpg[/IMG]]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133876#Comment_133876 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133876#Comment_133876 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 11:12:21 +0000 Joiner
I am looking to put triple glaze units direct into stone mullion frames is there any sealant you would recommend for this . I was going to use standard insulation foam to allow the window to expand.

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Sorry John. No experience of doing that onto stone. The only (and it's a stretch) similar situation was single glazing into old oak mullions which was bedded-in on transluscent acrylic sealant and then puttied. 3g straight into stone mullions? The face onto the rebate isn't a problem with the bedding bead of sealant (and the unit sitting on packers to even it up), whichever way it's glazed (internally or externally), it's making it look "right" on what would otherwise be the glazing-bead side.

What I could have made clear in my rant to Tom (sorry mate) was that the way I do it avoids the interaction predicted between the sealant and the hot-melt more by accident than design, because that's the way I've always done it in ignorance of the science that says it's critical to avoid it. Back to the old "He didn't know it was impossible" scenario. The method I use (and which others who've now taken to using the method have adopted) had more to do with getting away with using as little as possible rather than avoiding contact with the unit's edges - although my method still advocates the use of "copious amounts", the squeezed excess guaranteeing a good waterproofing seal, which is the whole point.

Having said all that, in the early days I DID apply the sealant all round the unit and only stopped because I wondered if there was a less expensive way of achieving the same end than just throwing gallons of sealant at it, and those windows are amongst the ones still going strong.

Is there absolutely no way of getting even a minimal frame of sorts around those units, John? I'm always reluctant to trust the tape edges that units usually come with because I've seen systems fail by moisture weakening the tape edges, enough to allow water to find its way around and under the tape to the inside of the unit, but that was on a conservatory roof and it took ages to realise what was happening! Since when I always stipulate "no tape" on every unit I order.

So I'm out of ideas based on first- or even second-hand experience.

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Posted by fostertom...

"renewablejohn, are your stone mullions glaze-in or glaze-out? In other words, did the original putty splay face inward or outward? this is a situation I'll prob be facing myself shortly - I'm hoping they're glaze-in, but fear they're glaze-out, which is def more tricky.

One time, in 1G days, I fitted a thin 'frame' of aluminium odd-leg angle, made up welded at the corners, tight into the rebate of somewhat wavy/decayed Bath stone mullions, to provide a flat (and slightly widened - visibly, but didn't seem to matter) rebate 'floor' to direct-glaze fixed glass to, and also to tap and thread into for hinges for some timber opening lights incl draught strip against the flat Al face. This was glaze-out. Worked v well."

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Joiner...

On the stone mullion glazing... Of course, it's usual in this situation for the glazing to be in edging of some kind, often lead cames. Which makes me wonder about retaining that "traditional" method by edging the 3g units with lead (flashing) and sealing along the edge of that with sealant prior to puttying because, drying clear, it'll be virtually invisible. In fact that's probably the way I'd go if I was doing the job.

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Tom...

You'd actually form a lead U-channel (like a came) to hold the 2G/3G unit, and mastic the lead to the surround?

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Joiner...

I can't think of any better way, it's just an "enlarged" version of the s/g traditional method and could, with care, be dressed around the unit.

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John...

Great idea with the lead flashing. My windows are only 12 inches wide and the plonker of a conservation officer insists that we replace softwood with oak frames with all bars being the width of the opening windows so 2 inches lost on either side so now only 8 inches of glass. I have one original leaded window lime mortared into a stone mullion so the precedent is set. Unfortunately I have 82 windows to replace 22 in just one room so oak frames are totally out of it. Getting back to the lead flashing would that create a heat bridge around the edge of the glazing unit or am I getting paranoid considering the amount of heat were already losing using single glaze.

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Joiner...

I think the fact that you're going to be improving the performance of what is, after all, the 'historic fabric', justifies a lighter touch on the self-flagellation.

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Tom...

A lead channel wrapped (dry?) around the edge of a 2G/3G unit? That channel (bottom one anyway) will fill with water, which doesn't matter with a came and 1G, but surely isn't good for the edge of a 2G/3G unit?

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Joiner...

Tom, seal the edges with the clear acrylic by running a bead of sealant around the outside of the unit then applying the prepared lead came profile. Dress it to a good snug fit and leave it flat overnight weighted down with a board pressing onto wood strips cut to the length of the sides to put pressure on the came edges, preferably top- and under-side. When cured, trim and run a bead of sealant along the edges of the came to even up the profile. Where the ends of the came meet (at the top of the unit, preferably though not necessarily at a corner) would likewise be sealed.

We're really only concerned with protecting the edge of the unit, and the sealant would do that, the lead came effectively nothing more than an element in that edge protection.
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(Phew!)]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133882#Comment_133882 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133882#Comment_133882 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 11:24:45 +0000 fostertom Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133883#Comment_133883 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133883#Comment_133883 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 11:27:13 +0000 renewablejohn Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133885#Comment_133885 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133885#Comment_133885 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 11:31:06 +0000 pmagowan Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133892#Comment_133892 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133892#Comment_133892 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 11:44:30 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: fostertomSo, are the mullions glaze-in or glaze-out?

I dont think there either. Basically the stone mullions are a diamond shape with a 2 in flat where the point of the diamond would be. Windows slide in from either direction. Present wooden windows have putty on outside of frames holding glass in.]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133898#Comment_133898 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133898#Comment_133898 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 11:53:32 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: pmagowanYou would think there would be some kind of rubber strip for precisely this kind of thing. It would be insulating (relative to lead), flexable and easy to seal. Squirty foam has quite a bit of give in it but single pane glass is easy to shatter if given a point load (I know as currently removing a whole pile of them). I expect 3g would cope.

Sorry rubber would not be allowed as it was not a material in use at the time the building was erected. Seems stupid but we could not protect the gutters with clear yacht varnish for the same reason and ended up having to use linseed oil based paint. Yes I know the meaning of the word "clear" but try telling that to our conservation officer.]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133903#Comment_133903 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133903#Comment_133903 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 12:11:07 +0000 Joiner
http://www.topclasscarpentry.com/product/59022/

It does what it says on the tin.

B&Q also sell the stuff and that dries like conventional putty.

I suspect that (especially given the area you're in) the CO might insist on a traditional "scotch mastic", or burnt-sand mastic (half way down the page)... http://www.womersleys.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww.womersleys.co.uk%2facatalog%2f&WD=burnt%20mastic%20sand&SHOP=%20&PN=Building_Products_4_4.html%23a23#a23

I'm not a fan because it goes rock-hard over time and hair-line cracks appear between it and whichever material is the most prone to expansion and contraction it's been applied to.

Whenever it has been insisted upon I've used a bead of sealant to seal edges and then finished off with the stuff.]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133916#Comment_133916 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133916#Comment_133916 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 13:08:24 +0000 renewablejohn Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133918#Comment_133918 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133918#Comment_133918 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 13:17:44 +0000 Joiner
Think you need one of the numbers men to play around with that, but instinctively I'd be happy to just go with it.

But then I didn't know where the bloody sun rose and set! :cry:]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133920#Comment_133920 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133920#Comment_133920 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 13:20:25 +0000 djh Posted By: renewablejohnSorry rubber would not be allowed as it was not a material in use at the time the building was erected.
But float glass was? :shocked:

I'm surprised they let you put any glass at all in the windows if they're so keen on authenticity!]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133921#Comment_133921 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133921#Comment_133921 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 13:24:02 +0000 Joiner ]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133922#Comment_133922 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133922#Comment_133922 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 13:24:02 +0000 joe90 Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133935#Comment_133935 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133935#Comment_133935 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 14:34:25 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: djh
Posted By: renewablejohnSorry rubber would not be allowed as it was not a material in use at the time the building was erected.

But float glass was?http://1.2.3.12/bmi/www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/shocked.gif" alt=":shocked:" title=":shocked:" >

I'm surprised they let you put any glass at all in the windows if they're so keen on authenticity!

Dont give them bright ideas. I know the building did not have glass to start with as the stone lintel and cill has a diamond shape cut into it where the steel bar used to fit.]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133940#Comment_133940 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133940#Comment_133940 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 15:05:58 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: joe90John, you wrote "have one original leaded window lime mortared into a stone mullion so the precedent is set. " Can you not post a picture of this so we can all see what you have to copy and as you said the precedent has already been set!!!

Not the best of photo's off my iphone]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133945#Comment_133945 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133945#Comment_133945 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 15:28:48 +0000 fostertom Posted By: renewablejohnNot the best of photo'strue - looks like a graphic off horror story bk cover]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133971#Comment_133971 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133971#Comment_133971 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 17:22:37 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: fostertom
Posted By: renewablejohnNot the best of photo's
true - looks like a graphic off horror story bk cover

You should have seen it before I brushed the cobwebs off.]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133976#Comment_133976 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133976#Comment_133976 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 17:53:50 +0000 Joiner Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133984#Comment_133984 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133984#Comment_133984 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 18:20:41 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: JoinerAmazed the CO didn't insist you keep them all. They would have around here and then suggest secondary glazing!

Originals were all taken out 30 years ago and replaced with "oak" frames.I think the only reason it survived was because of the non standard shape being to costly to replace. The CO was so pathetic at the time they did not check the frames installed. Only the south facing was in oak the rest is softwood similarly south guttering made of wood rest now plastic. Even 12 of the weavers windows were blocked up and a doorway inserted. Unfortunately current CO now wants all windows in oak plastic gutters replaced with wood and the weavers windows reinstating. Cannot argue with any of that because it is what we would do anyway but when your threatened with enforcement for actions taken by previous owners non compliance and mismanagement by a previous CO it does come as a bit of a shock.]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133985#Comment_133985 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133985#Comment_133985 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 18:24:32 +0000 Janitor Posted By: renewablejohnbut when your threatened with enforcement for actions taken by previous owners non compliance and mismanagement by a previous CO it does come as a bit of a shock.
What..? They want to slap you for issues which were absolutely nothing to do with you..? Seriously..?

I'd like to see that one stand up]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133986#Comment_133986 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133986#Comment_133986 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 18:27:29 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: Janitor
Posted By: renewablejohnbut when your threatened with enforcement for actions taken by previous owners non compliance and mismanagement by a previous CO it does come as a bit of a shock.

What..? They want to slap you for issues which were absolutely nothing to do with you..? Seriously..?

I'd like to see that one stand up

Apparently its part of the price you pay for having a listed building.]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133987#Comment_133987 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133987#Comment_133987 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 18:34:30 +0000 Janitor ]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133988#Comment_133988 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133988#Comment_133988 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 18:35:05 +0000 fostertom Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133990#Comment_133990 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=133990#Comment_133990 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 18:43:21 +0000 renewablejohn Posted By: JanitorIs that not akin to subsequent owners of Fred West's house being arrested for burying people under the patio..?http://1.2.3.12/bmi/www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/confused.gif" alt=":confused:" title=":confused:" >

No its more a case of did the house you just buy have planning permission for the extension. Normally it is covered by solicitors questions at time of purchase. Unfortunately there is no similar questions for Listed Builders although liability does pass to the new owner at time of sale. If I new the consequences then we would not have completed without an insurance indemnity for the works to be undertaken.]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=134000#Comment_134000 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=134000#Comment_134000 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 20:11:33 +0000 Janitor ]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=134004#Comment_134004 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=134004#Comment_134004 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 20:58:14 +0000 Dominic Cooney It means you can't use the excuse "it was like this when we bought it... honest!"
Unfortunately it does mean the well intentioned can be left clearing up someone else botch job after a routine or genuine enquiry at the Council office for advice.

Well informed co-operation is the best route. (i.e. do your own research etc. and well-inform yourself!)]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=134011#Comment_134011 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=134011#Comment_134011 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 21:35:55 +0000 renewablejohn Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=134014#Comment_134014 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=134014#Comment_134014 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 22:14:29 +0000 Joiner
It isn't always that COs will deny something they've said, but can be because they tend to move around a lot and many of them don't keep any detailed records. There are exceptions, but in my experience they're in the singular.

And don't expect consistency within the same office or local authority if you're still in a county with District Councils. In fact if Shropshire is anything to go by, even if you're in a unitary authority! :angry:]]> Grade 2 listed upgrade to satisfy conservation officer https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=134019#Comment_134019 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8562&Focus=134019#Comment_134019 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 22:31:02 +0000 joe90