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    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2012 edited
     
    This a work-in-progress detail of my existing eaves. I'm at a bit of a loss as to how I'm going to achieve a decent u-value and airtightness here. How to link the external insulation and roof insulation? Any bright ideas? (This is part of a loft conversion).
      refurb-eaves-detail-work-in-progress.png
    • CommentAuthorpmagowan
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2012
     
    Is this already what you have and you are interested in joining the two insulation layers and the airtightness or is this just a possible approach? If you have complete freedom my solution is to put the insulation above the rafters, cut off the ends at the wall plate and join it directly to the EWI. I will then suspend my eaves off an oversized counterbatton. As you have it there is obviously a large thermal bridge between the two insulation layers and it is at a point in the house that heat will naturally rise out of. You could put some IWI on the top of that internal wall and put a triangle of eps in the gap but you are limited in your need for ventilation with that detail. Where is your air tightness layer? Is it internal plaster?
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2012 edited
     
    Oh right, no, this is my existing eaves:
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=8503

    Can't go above rafters because it's mid-terrace. :sad: I'm guessing the air barrier will need to be at the internal lining, yes.
  1.  
    Could you use a second eaves ventilator? This type http://www.cavitytrays.co.uk/ventilation/view/2/81/1/type-oevwf-open-eaves-ventilator. This will leave you with the thinnest insulation at the wall plate zone. If this still bothers you create an insulated skeiling between the flat ceiling and the wall
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2012 edited
     
    I've been thinking a skeiling might be in order too, although how much that would help with that single leaf shooting up through the heart of it is hard to say. Is there any software I could use to thermally model this junction?

    The problem with standard ventilators like that is that they require fitting from above the rafters. Is it possible to take just the lower first half dozen runs of roof tiles off? If so perhaps I could use a couple of runs of this product:
    http://www.cavitytrays.co.uk/ventilation/view/2/78/2/type-erov-eaves-roll-out-ventilator
      refurb-eaves-detail-work-in-progress-2.png
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: ShevekThe problem with standard ventilators like that is that they require fitting from above the rafters. Is it possible to take just the lower first few runs of roof tiles off?
    ?


    Hi , did this yesterday to a place . easy with a tower ,

    take the first 3 rows of tiles off , tuck quilt under rafter and against wall at soffit and to meet up with loft quilt.
    Cut PUR 800mm long to fit inbetween rafters , push in so as bottom of PUR joins up with EWI or just over wall
    if your EWI in the future . replace with breather felt/batton etc , stick 10mm nail-on vents along top of fascia

    I've left a 25mm gap above PUR , large rafter 75mm gap at plate junction, so used 50mm pur

    slightly different to you as you converting the loft , but with the tile off you can join up the VB and connect
    ewi and internal loft pitch insulation

    on my own place i used 50mm and have no vent gap as im not concerned re. condensation over this short length as I've a good VB for wall to ceiling connection and cold vented loft
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2012 edited
     
    by extendingthe PUR right up to loft you wont need those corrigated vents. just close the gap a bit at the wall plate junction , say leave 25mm .

    or you could attack from above, inside , without moving tiles , some info here http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=6190&page=1
  2.  
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2012 edited
     
    Thanks James. Something like the attached?

    Won't building control insist on a 50 mm gap in accordance with BS 5250? Or is it different for existing buildings?

    I'm not sure that the vent over fascia would work because it's a mid-terrace house so I can't adjust the height of the guttering or roof tiles.

    Why do you recommend PUR as opposed to PIR? What about Aerogel?

    I've also been wondering about lowering the joists. Only problem is we need to live in the place while we're doing it.
      refurb-eaves-detail-work-in-progress-3.png
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2012 edited
     
    Yep like that

    As far as i'm aware B.regs require 25mm cont. air gap , most leave 50mm between rafter with old style felt to make up for rafters ?? you could argue with the correct breather felt no need for any airgap, though most require 25mm.

    the 10mm height increase wont show in anyway relative to ajoining terrace , just a slight lift in the tile at either end. unnoticable from the ground.

    PUR/PIR it's all the same to me , celotex,xtratherm,kingspan:bigsmile:
    you could use aerogel as it's a small gap you may have to work with. never used it , not sure of ease of supply.
    how about phenolic

    Lower joist to increase loft space is quiet common . do this first, fit joists, tack out ceilings
    then work, doing rip out, from above via scaffold/roofwindow (or loft hatch) , drop in stairs last and skim ceiling over when completed loft . bit of a mess but keeps the first floor liveable
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2012 edited
     
    That makes sense to drop joists first thing. With an existing floor-to-ceiling height of 2430 we could afford to drop by 100 mm, maybe even 150 mm. In doing this I wonder if I could somehow take off a course of that extended single leaf of brickwork? God knows how without impacting on the roof. Perhaps with the help of a steel beam up further somewhere and/or by notching the joists into the brick wall under top plate before pulling out the bricks in between? Then I could end up with something like this. Am I barking up the wrong tree?
      refurb-eaves-detail-work-in-progress-4.png
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeFeb 13th 2012 edited
     
    2250mm still feels ok , that would gve you 180mm . I presume you got 75-100mm ceiling joists currently.

    I sure you're aware best to use minium height joist possible to maximise hieght saving , perhaps by spanning off mid way supporting wall to plate will reduce span width , rather than sticking in steels like they seem keen to do all the time.
    how about I beams , this is interesting
    http://www.strongtie.co.uk/iloft/index.php
    you could slide in beams from outside , stick them on lower course ,tie them in with rafters , then remove
    all unnecessary brickwork /wallplate above this
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeFeb 18th 2012 edited
     
    Thanks for the great suggestion James. Strongtie have a maddening website though. I can't find any useful technical information that will help me size the joists (I have a clear span of 6200). And if you register to download their software you can't use the same registration to access CAD details. And I can't figure out how you're even meant to register for access to access their details. Really off-putting when companies are pig-headed about access.
  3.  
    shame no central supporting wall . I beams probably going to be too deep at 6.2m span
    bit of span spec here for I beams
    http://www.trussform.co.uk/download/TJI_Technical_Guide.pdf
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2012
     
    Posted By: jamesingramYep like that

    As far as i'm aware B.regs require 25mm cont. air gap , most leave 50mm between rafter with old style felt ...


    because the felt drapes 25mm mid way between rafters.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2012
     
    Since the discussion above we've decided to aim for Passivhaus, which means the above isn't going to cut the mustard. Any ideas?

    I'm wondering whether a re-roof is unavoidable. Rip roof and battens up. Add 82.5 mm Kooltherm 18 below rafters, 100 mm K7 full-fill between rafters, breather membrane, new counter-battens (size?), battens, tiles.

    This will mean we're higher than the neighbour's roofs. Is this possible?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2012
     
    false skeiling ceilings?
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2012 edited
     
    Okay, this is a preliminary sketch of the eaves detail with new loft conversion above and new insulated skeiling added.

    Any thoughts on avoiding interstitial condensation? Do you think that brickwork upstand will stay warm enough?
      eaves2.png
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2012
     
    no void = no ventilation necessary, where is the vapour barrier? where is the air tightness barrier?
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2012
     
    Air-tightness barrier will be the plaster to walls and plasterboard to skeiling. I could use foil-backed plasterboard for the skeiling but do you think a vapour control layer will make much of a difference here when the existing walls and ceiling don't have one?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2012
     
    no, so long as yo can make it air tight without one.
  4.  
    The over fascia vent should go on top of the sarking membrane/eaves sheet so that it ventilates the batten cavity as in a warm roof.

    If you move the fascia up so that the over fascia vent correctly supports the underside of the tiles then there'll be nothing to fix it to. I would run a continuous tilting fillet or inverted bevelled batten behind the fascia screw fixed to the top side of the rafters.

    You probably don't need the short section of soffit board. Just use a fair-faced batten.

    David
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