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Housing - Renovation: Listed building

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorcrusoe
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2012
     
    Pet hate.... It has long seemed to me that there is a very polemic conflict of interests between energy efficiency and listed building status. As in what they will and won't let you do. Do we have to freeze in an admittedly pretty bit of heritage, or can it be livable and even green?

    I am in the process of installing an eco-friendly energy system for a client in a grade 2 listed building. I'm not after heating advice as such, but passive measures (insulation/glazing etc) that are generally allowed in Gr 2 listed buildings - and which members have found helpful in improving comfort and reducing consumption.

    Thanks in anticipation, Crusoe.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2012
     
    Get together with Renewablejohn, he's got the same problem and having to jump the same hurdles. :devil:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSpike
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2012
     
    Loft insulation, air tightness, hardboard and thick underlay to suspended timber ground floors and thermal; linings to curtains. If possible, a wood burning stove for the main living room. Live differently - heat less, wear more, heat the rooms you use most. Beyond that it gets expensive and is probably not worthwhile.
    Internal insulation to external walls is potentially damaging due to interstitial condensation issues (GBF passim). Secondary glazing possible but costly, slim double glazing units can be retrofitted in existing windows, subject to consent, but are v. expensive. Insulating under floors possible but disruptive (and old floorboards can be damaged in the lifting)
    There is evidence that improving energy efficiency does not necessarily result in reduced energy consumption - people taking the benefit of increased comfort by heating more (on the basis, presumably, that more 'efficient' houses are worth heating).
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2012
     
    "There is evidence that improving energy efficiency does not necessarily result in reduced energy consumption - people taking the benefit of increased comfort by heating more (on the basis, presumably, that more 'efficient' houses are worth heating)."

    Interesting point, Spike. Care to elaborate with a link or two? :bigsmile:
  5.  
    EST probably have written this up at some time, in terms of 'taking the saving' in heat rather than in money saved. It's a classic Fuel Poverty conundrum.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2012 edited
     
    Rather than hijack the thread, which pretty specific and best left undiluted, I've moved the point I raised with Spike onto another thread here...

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=8733
    •  
      CommentAuthorSpike
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2012
     
    Joiner, I have responded to your challenge on your other thread
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2012
     
    :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorcrusoe
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2012
     
    Spike, I do think it depends on the people in the property and their upbringing and mindset. I installed a TS with oversize solar and condensing gas boiler AND increased heating for an older couple (more comfort) and saved them over 50% on their combined gas/electric bills. But instead of going to town with more heating, they are thrifty and maintain the saving. I suspect many (but not all!) couples from the war/immediate post-war era who have lived through real depressions have this mentality - take care of the pennies etc.

    Thanks for input, keep 'em coming....:smile:

    Oh, and ground floors are well-insulated and will have UFH.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSpike
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2012
     
    Absolutely: buildings don't use energy, people do.

    We live in a 200m2 stone built, Victorian, high ceilinged, single glazed energy muncher - but we use less energy than the average UK house because we choose to
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: SpikeInternal insulation to external walls is potentially damaging due to interstitial condensation issues
    unless -special case - the building has plastered lath and batten lined masonry walls. In that case, def remove all that and replace with plasterboard laminate of same thickness. I'm thinking of common Victorian classic construction; cornices, large moulded wooden skirtings, chair and/or picture rails. Best leave the cornices undisturbed; fill with squirty foam behind as far as poss, but reinstate the other decorative stuff on the new surface. Run the pbd lam right down thro the floor voids, fitted round joists, to meet top of ceiling below. The insulation won't be gd enough to cause significantly increased danger to embedded joist ends. Use breatheable laminate preferably.

    All this is because the void space behind the lath & plaster will be well ventilated to outside air, even tho it's supposed to add a little insulation to a solid wall. When the wind blows, there will be only the plaster thickness between you and the outside air. In that case only, IMO, is IWI a gd idea,
    •  
      CommentAuthorSpike
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2012
     
    Blimey, it's only posh houses that went for lath and plaster dry lining. Not many of them about!
  13.  
    Crusoe

    Where does one start. Whatever you do will probably end up a battle with your Conservation Officer. Best policy I have found is first name terms with English Heritage. Whatever CO says get it vetted with English Heritage and ask them for guidance. I have a very old draughty stone farmhouse. We started by putting 600mm insulation in loft which made a big difference straight away. 200mm in eaves 200mm between rafters 200 across rafters. Next came change from oil Aga and oil central heating boiler to wood burning Esse and Dunsley Yorkshire central heating boiler (I have free timber so no brainer). Now on more difficult stage with CO of 3G windows quoting existing other Grade 2 houses already using the system. Stone walls are 2 foot thick and cannot do anything about apart from being well pointed to keep out draughts. Eventually new sealed oak doors but as yet not found a listed building with approved doors of this construction
    • CommentAuthorcrusoe
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2012
     
    renewablejohn...your name mentioned in despatches, then you showed up! Thanks for input, and tom of the fosters too. No such lath and plaster internal linings here. I'm getting a feel for it gradually (long project this one) so will be asking customer to have a read here too.

    Sneaky second reason for starting the thread is to see what we could do at home - similar olde house - but always useful to practice on a customer's first eh? :smile:
    • CommentAuthorcrusoe
    • CommentTimeMar 14th 2012
     
    renewablejohn - any chance of knowing which 3G windows (or good DG come to that) IS allowed please?

    Thanks, crusoe.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2012
     
    Ha ha. You'll be lucky 'crusoe'. The assumption being that COs and LA Conservation Departments generally display a consistency across the country, or even across counties, or even in the same bloody office. No way. It's what drives us mad.

    The mantra is: "Each case is considered on its individual merits."

    Fair enough, except that if two COs considered the same case on its individual merits you're likely to get two individual opinions.

    English Heritage is more pragmatic than local COs. And if you've got a CO who's completed a post-grad conservation course, then you're looking into the gates of Hell, because they make Osama Bin Laden look like a tambourine player in a Salvation Army band.
    • CommentAuthorcrusoe
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2012
     
    Do I detect a whiff of schadenfreude Joiner? :smile:
  18.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: crusoe</cite>renewablejohn - any chance of knowing which 3G windows (or good DG come to that) IS allowed please?

    Thanks, crusoe.</blockquote>

    How I wish life was so simple. As Joiner pointed out consistency is not in there nature. In my own case within the same authority two Grade 2 houses I know have already had 3G units inserted direct into the stone mullions but apparently the precedent has not been set as each listed house is "unique" and can only be decided on a case by case basis.
    • CommentAuthorcrusoe
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2012
     
    Thanks .... I think. I do wish they were accountable so that the decisions were not so arbitrary. Amazing in this dage eh... :shocked:
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2012
     
    They can be challenged, but you have to be damn certain of your grounds, which means a lot of research and the presentation of an impeccable argument. They also know the power of delay. I was frequently frustrated by customers backing down in the face of a hinted threat to refuse ANY permission in the event of a challenge.

    I've had two customers lose it completely with COs over the years, I wasn't there on either occasion. One, a farmer, came out with a shotgun and odered the guy off his land. He was only placated by the promise of the two planning officers who were there at the same time to "have a word" with the guy back in the office. That was over his insistence that the lean-to kitchen on the 16th century farmhouse be replaced with another lean-to structure of rendered blockwork and not the stone and half-timbered one planned to be built from oak and stone off the surrounding woodland and small quarry from which the original house had been built, roofed with identical tiles, reclaimed.

    The other was a woman customer who had "had dealings Royalty". A strange lady, but she always paid in cash when the bill was presented. I was told that it took two large builders to pull her off the same CO when he told her that she couldn't re-erect two stone gate posts that had been knocked down in the early 50s by her father because they "wouldn't have been there when the house was listed". She had him by the throat. None of the builders saw anything.

    The farmhouse got its half-timbered and stone kitchen. The gate posts went back up.
  21.  
    You may shortly hear of a third person who has totally lost it.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2012
     
    :crazy: :peace:
  23.  
    I am about to talk to a prospective customer about internal insulation of attic walls and roof for a Georgian grade 2 listed building. I get the impression that the rafters are covered with lath and plaster,so am wondering, whether to fit insulation over it instead of pulling it all down.
    The customer is very keen on green insulation products, what are your suggestions?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2012
     
    A blanket of dessicated flattened COs sounds like a start: should be plenty available from what I'm hearing... %-P

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2012
     
    :rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling:
  26.  
    Cheers for the banter guys :wink:
    How would you rate Pavatherm or sheepswool for these applications or have you got any other suggestions.
    Cheers chippyclaus.

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