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Housing - Renovation: COs have a lot to answer for

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2012
     
    COs have a lot to answer for... posted by joiner yesterday

    Understatement!! especially when it comes to energy conservation, they seem to be the biggest obstacle to being able to do this.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2012
     
    I believe that the primary problem is that there is no concerted opposition to the whims, and occasionally policies, that CO's use to dictate what is and is not acceptable. They seem to be a loose group of individuals, often working independently and using their own personal preferences as a guide to what shall and shall not be deemed acceptable.

    As I've mentioned before, we need to rationalise all the, often conflicting, rules and regulations that are applied to housing and there needs to be central guidance as to the need to balance energy efficiency with conservation desires.

    Is there a body that lobbies to try and balance the view of COs towards energy efficiency? If not, perhaps there needs to be one, a group that will act as a repository for examples of good practice in achieving an energy/conservation balance and which can support individuals faced with dealing with some of the awkward sods.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2012
     
    I think EH are moving towards a consensus, at least amongst themselves. They're often more pragmatic than local COs, and often reactionary to the point of being downright controversial - their acceptance of an ultra-modern development immediately adjacent to one of the oldest buildings in Bridgnorth, in the heart of a Conservation Area packed with historic stuff, caused a few jaws to drop. And they have accepted the use of draught-proofed beads on sliding sashes on anything of Grade 2 or below, and that in the face of opposition from local COs.

    The big influence on COs are the post-grad conservation courses which are a bit like Islamic madrassahs run by hard-liners who see compromise as a heresy deserving of jihad. The fundamentalist extremists of all religions could learn a thing or two from them.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2012
     
    Posted By: JoinerThe big influence on COs are the post-grad conservation courses
    Sadly, my daughter, who was my great ally and v talented designer/artist but now is so full of dogma and jargon that she's moving up v nicely in the Planning world - strategic planning now.
  5.  
    Most listed building that I have seen are a mishmash of styles and the older the building the more modifications from original there seem to be. This of course is understandable as each generation adds its own 'improvements' which will then be 'improved', removed or changed by subsequent owners. The current fashion of listing buildings and locking them in a time warp IMO occurs far too frequently and without justification. I also hold the opinion that if society want to hold a building in a time warp and prevent upgrades then society should help pay for it. The present system of COs demanding outrageously expensive like for like - even when the item in question was not original but a later modification that happened to be there when the building was listed is ridiculous.
    IMO it would be better if the hapless owners of listed buildings could claim the difference between normal work (or heating costs) and the difference caused by the COs demands on that listed building. The difference being picked up by the local council. I am sure this would concentrate the minds of the accountants to the point where only truly worthwhile buildings were listed, whereas at the moment the cost of listing is thrust upon the owner with society enjoying the dubious benefit of seeing buildings stuck in a time-warp with none of the associated costs.
    Does an inappropriate attachment on a 100 year old house look worse than an inappropriate attachment on a modern house - not in my book!
    This might sound like a bit of a rant...........
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2012
     
    Peter, It used to happen with the old Historic Buildings grant which paid up to 25% of cost of work to a max of £4,000 in any twelve months but that vanished a couple of years ago. There are still match-funded regeneration grants for specific schemes.
  7.  
    Whats energy conservation in a Grade 2 listed building. Surely you need to be a hardy breed living in old stone walls with single glazing and lots of natural draughts. If it was down to me I would make it compulsory for CO to spend just one winters night in our house without any heating and then see if they have the same attitude.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2012
     
    Posted By: renewablejohnWhats energy conservation in a Grade 2 listed building. Surely you need to be a hardy breed living in old stone walls with single glazing and lots of natural draughts.

    Normal housing down here, but then they will tell you that a foot of granite makes it cosy and you can't beat a slate roof :wink:
  9.  
    Posted By: JoinerIt used to happen with the old Historic Buildings grant which paid up to 25% of cost of work to a max of £4,000 in any twelve months but that vanished a couple of years ago.


    Yes - and was it removed because the owners of listed buildings neither wanted nor needed this support?:devil:
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2012
     
    Hadn't heard that version, Peter.

    A sizeable percentage of my customers could only afford to have the work done at all - let alone "properly" - by taking advantage of the scheme. Those who could afford the work as determined by the CO, used the "extra" money from that grant to have work done elsewhere on the property which would otherwise have been put off for another year.

    The grant was resented by many in local government because it was seen as a perk for "the rich bastards who can afford to live in places like that, so why should they get what I can't have?" A sentiment sort of echoed by one CO who, in my presence, told a customer of mine that if they couldn't afford to pay to have the work done properly then they shouldn't have bought a Listed building. The customer was in tears, not of self-pity but anger because the problem that had been uncovered only came to light when a (modern, 70s) stud wall came down, obviously erected by a previous owner to hide extensive rot in posts and beams in the first floor, none of which would have been obvious (or suspected) during the full structural survey she'd had done prior to purchase. The CO was arguing that if she wanted funding she should claim against the structural surveyor's PI insurance. Because I was so well known to the Conservation department my written report on the problem and how it was discovered was accepted and funding was given, in that case 60% of the overall cost, the extra coming from EH match-funded monies. In that case it was a case of "Thank God for Tudor over-engineering!".
  11.  
    Posted By: fostertomSadly, my daughter, who was my great ally and v talented designer/artist but now is so full of dogma and jargon that she's moving up v nicely in the Planning world - strategic planning now.


    ...my thoughts are with you and yours as you deal with this loss... :cry:

    :wink:

    J
  12.  
    ... not too late for some sort of family intervention:http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=1&id=4&Itemid=7 ...?
  13.  
    Whats all these grants about. All I have ever been told is if your mad enough to buy a listed building then you can afford to conserve it to our requirements. Needless to say from that point onwards my opinion of CO deteriorated.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2012
     
    Thaaank you James.

    Actually my daughter, being v bright and radical in her way, has done some pushing-the-limits work at planning strategy level, introducing truly relevant and far reaching criteria into consideration of eco/energy/carbon implications of this strategic plan vs that one - recognising the long-term effect that LA policies do have on eco/energy/carbon. When I proudly talked publicly about this in the past I got ticked off - and still embargoed AFAIK - must check.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2012 edited
     
    Not all LAs supported the Historic Buildings Grant.

    There was some logic to them because they acknowledged the extra work involved in replicating historic features that gave the building its character. I liked them because they kept me in work, so I have to confess to both a prejudicial and financial interest. :wink:

    They were, I suppose, the equivalent of the kind of incentives that accelerate the move towards renewables.

    Match-funding regeneration schemes tend to be the ones that get abused because the take-up by the targetted sectors is low, whether commercial or domestic, because owners, whether Listed buildings or Conservation Area (Article 4 usually around here), still have to find the balance of funding within the timescale of the scheme. But it also used to surprise me how many people let a fantastic opportunity slip by because they just couldn't be assed, usually commercial properties.

    The regeneration schemes are, by definition, usually targetted at urban conservation areas rather than individual properties. The old Heritage Regeneration Scheme was an exception to that, and I did a lot of work in local small towns and villages, the intention being to make it more attractive for businesses to move back. Intended for commercial properties, when it was obvious the funding wasn't being taken up by the commercial sector, I did a couple of large-ish (circa £10K) jobs on domestic buildings within Conservation Areas, justified (by the CO, incidentally) by the argument that it was still "improving the historic environment". Didn't work.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2012
     
    This lot started me sorting through all my old files and I found the copy of 'Best Practice Guidance on Listed Building Prosecutions', given me by a CO who said I was "getting above" myself and needed to be reminded of just "who has the power here". I thanked him and, within his hearing, phoned his boss who backed him "as a matter of principle", which is when I got back into the van and drove home where I wrote direct to his council's Chief Executive with copies of all the correspondence concerning the job to date and making a formal complaint against the CO and his boss. A "compromise" was reached after a formal site meeting where all the correspondence was reviewed and decisions made "in the light of the new evidence". My ass!

    Anyway, here it is. Worth reading because there are defences in there too.

    http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/bestpracticeguidance

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