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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
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    • CommentAuthorEmmaG
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2012
     
    Hi, I have installed solar panels to my roof, operational for only 1 day before being asked to remove them/apply for retrospective planning by friendly local council! I pointed out the legislation under which they are a permitted development - they agreed, but said I didnt meet the conditions thereof as "they affected the amenity of area & appearance of building". I pointed out the term "as far as is practicable" & that there was no other practicable option. HOWEVER, they say:

    "You are interpreting the phrase "so far as practicable" in relation to the efficiency of the installation however this term refers to whether or not the panels can be installed in such a way as to minimise the effect on the building/amenity of the area. For example to comply with these conditions we would usually expect the installation of solar panels on a mid-terraced property to be on the rear rather than the principal elevation. Whilst most properties benefit from permitted development rights not all householders are able to utilise them."

    Does anyone have any ideas where I go with this next?? I did (& do) truly believe I am in the right here!
    I have already copied in her boss, so presumably he agrees with her (shes an enforcement officer)

    Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
    :cry:
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2012
     
    Perhaps you could point out to them that fitting them to the rear elevation is not in the slightest bit practicable. I could understand how a non-technical person might not understand that they have to be aligned in a particular direction.

    Get your installer involved, especially if they've fitted them in your area before.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2012
     
    First off, are you in an area that has any form of planning restrictions? Conservation areas, some AONBs and the National Parks, for example, restrict the normal PD rights under which PV can be fitted (my new house, for example, needs full planning permission to fit PV).

    Assuming that you're in an area free from such restrictions, then it sounds as if the planners may be responding to a complaint from a member of the public. It's quite unusual for planners to just take action like this without someone having complained, especially so quickly.

    I believe that they are interpreting the amenity phrase very tightly, although it's hard to argue precedent with planners; they frequently fall back on the "every case must be treated on its individual merits" argument.

    Best bet might be to just go though the planning process and prepare a solid argument to support your case, maybe quoting similar properties in the area that have PV on a front elevation, supporting this with photos etc if you can. If the worst comes to the worst and they refuse permission, then I think you'd stand a pretty good chance at appeal, unless the installation really is an eyesore.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2012
     
    I'm with JSH on this one.
    You could 1. Apply for retrospective planning and go around your borough (Local Authority Area) and take photos of all the buildings with PV on the fronts to back your case up. or
    2. Look on your local authority's planning website at all the PV applications. If there's lots and they have PV facing the road then you know you're not alone. If, however, you can't find any applications but you know of PV on houses facing the road then take photos and then take these to the enforcement officer and ask the question.

    It does sound like this is in response to a bimby neighbour. Have the Planning Dept. set this out in writing explaining exactly why you don't have PDR? If not ignore them until they do.
  1.  
    Applicable national planning guidance:

    "...PPS1 – Delivering sustainable development

    Supplement to PPS1: Planning and climate change

    Renewable and low-carbon energy generation:

    20. In particular, planning authorities should:
    – not require applicants for energy development to demonstrate either the overall need for renewable energy and its distribution, nor question the energy justification for why a proposal for such development must be sited in a particular location
    – ensure any local approach to protecting landscape and townscape is consistent with PPS22 and does not preclude the supply of any type of renewable energy other than in the most exceptional circumstances..."

    Get that Mr planning officer...? "...other than in the most exceptional circumstances..."

    http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/ppsclimatechange

    Hope that helps

    J
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2012 edited
     
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2012 edited
     
    Guildford Council interprets the rules in your favour. In this document they give examples..

    http://www.guildford.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=6396&p=0

    Bottom of page 5 shows panels on front roof elevation and says..

    "As far as practicable the installation has been sited to minimise its effect on the external appearance on the building and amenity AS THE SOUTH FACING ROOF ELEVATION IS THE ONLY VIABLE LOCATION FOR INSTALLING PV" (My bold).

    It declares that to be "Permitted Development".

    I wouldn't apply for Planning Permission first. I would apply for a CLD first on the grounds that you meet terms and conditions of the General Permitted Development Order. Explain why and perhaps refer them to the above and the Poole Appeal (see below). If they refuse a CLD then you can still apply for Planning Permission and Appeal if necessary (eg three bites at the cherry).

    http://www.prospectlaw.co.uk/assets/ER-Building-Products-Magazine-Article-25.04.11.pdf

    "A decision of a planning inspector on an appeal against the refusal of planning permission for a PV scheme at Poole in Dorset in July 2010 has, to some extent (although his decision is not binding on subsequent decision makers), helped to clarify the situation since he expressed the view that as regards condition (a), the proposed scale of the PV system on a rooftop was not an issue which serves to limit PD rights for PV schemes and that what matters is the siting of the PV system rather than the size of any roof based domestic PV system. The Inspector also found that as regards condition (b), the only amenity impact causing potential harm was visual and that no harm was caused."

    http://www.housingenergyadvisor.com/blog/planning-permission-for-installing-solar-roof-panels-123/

    Quote..

    conditions on the automatic grant of permission, as follows:

    “Development is permitted by Class A subject to the following conditions—
    (a) solar PV or solar thermal equipment installed on a building shall, so far as practicable, be sited so as to minimise its effect on the external appearance of the building;
    (b) solar PV or solar thermal equipment shall, so far as practicable, be sited so as to minimise its effect on the amenity of the area; and
    (c) solar PV or solar thermal equipment no longer needed for micro generation shall be removed as soon as reasonably practicable.”

    Some councils have looked at points a and b and taken the view that planning applications are required to ensure that the panels are not too large or too visible from the highway. This was a disappointing approach since it seemed to be at odds with the spirit of the new legislation. Fortunately, the planning process incorporates a right of appeal, and such an appeal was made against a decision in Poole earlier this year.

    The 2010 Poole Council Appeal Decision

    Following a decision by Poole council that a homeowner was obliged to make an application for planning permission to install solar panels, the home owner decided to appeal to the planning inspector. On 21 July 2010 the planning inspector ruled in favour of the homeowner, i.e. that Poole council were mistaken and in fact no planning application was required to install the solar panels in question.

    On the subject of the size of an installation, the planning inspector said “As to size, plainly a smaller array would have a lesser effect, but that could be said of any installation; condition (a) is concerned with siting, not size. Had Parliament intended to impose a size limitation it would have been a simple matter to do so.”, and on the subject of visual amenity “Condition (b) is that solar PV or solar thermal equipment shall, so far as practicable, be sited so as to minimise its effect on the amenity of the area. In this case the only effect on amenity is visual – the appearance of the building – and accordingly I conclude that this condition also would be met.”

    As a result of this very welcome decision local authorities around England have little choice but to reconsider their policies on solar panels and refrain from insisting on a specific application being made except where the exceptions at Part 40 Class A (1) of the 1995 Order (as amended by the 2008 Order) apply or where the installation is significantly larger than a typical domestic installation or is otherwise unusual in appearance. "
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2012 edited
     
    For this sort of stuff it's worth mentioning which country you're in. England and Wales differ a bit and Scotland is very different. And then there's NI.

    Assuming England:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2009/2193/article/2/made

    If the intention of conditions A.2 (a) (“must, so far as practicable, be sited so as to minimise its effect on the external appearance of the building”) and (b) (“must, so far as practicable, be sited so as to minimise its effect on the amenity of the area”) were that panels generally be put on the back of the property then it seems to me there'd be little point in having A.1 (c) (i) (the bit about not being visible from the highway in a conservation area, etc). So, clearly, that's not what the government intended.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2012
     
    Well done CW, I think that about answers the question!
    EmmaG, I suspect your Planning Officer hasn't been keeping up to date - and they are always "on a coarse " when you phone!!
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2012
     
    I strongly suspect that there's been an "influential whinger" at work here. Never underestimate the ability of local councils to be influenced by certain individuals within the community. Fair and democratic they aren't, very often............
    • CommentAuthorEmmaG
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2012
     
    Wow, thanks for such a swift response everyone!
    Just for clarification, I am in England (authority is Bradford).
    I have already quoted PPS22 at them & the Poole Council Appeal (largely from following previous threads on this site!) - but to no avail.
    I have also explained to them why no other roof space would be practicable.
    (and believe me, they are really not that visible due to the height of the roof & narrowness of the street)
    The only reason they give for asking me to apply for PPerm is their 'interpretation' of conditions (a) & (b) - which makes no sense to me either.
    There are certainly a couple of other examples of front elevation panels in the village, and they are on much older & more attractive properties than mine.
    I believe you are right about the influential whinger - I understand it was a parish councillor who 1st made an 'enquiry' to the P Dept...
    • CommentAuthorEmmaG
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2012
     
    PS, re the CLD - is it a different department who would consider that? Are they not likely to just turn me down on the same grounds?
  2.  
    what about this NPPF will that be of any use ? lots of use of the vague term 'sustainable' being thrown about.

    Be nice to tell the planning office were to stick thier app.
    Get the Daily Fail on the case :)
    'Banana parish council republic', 'hell in a hand cart' etc.
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2012
     
    I did read a council document online - one I'm not sure they realised was online - that warned planning officers to pick their battles very carefully when it came to appeals etc as they were costing the council too much money.

    The more examples in your village you can drum up the better. Do you know if any of those passed planning or did they all come under permitted development?
    • CommentAuthorEmmaG
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2012
     
    Unsure Robin, but I think it is time to start knocking on doors and asking.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2012
     
    EmmaG - Seems the Planners are throwing their weight around in the Grt Manchester regions!
    The Planners are worried about visual amenity? So I think your best bet is to take a look at that issue and then try to discuss it with them. You have already established that the existing position is the only one suitable for PV and that you have minimised the visual impact in that position by laying the panels onto, at the same angle as, the existing roof covering, also by sizing the panels so that there are no overhangs etc, etc.
    Take a wander around your area and see how many points where you can see the panels. If that's only two places then you're onto a winner. Say you have 10 points you can see the panels from, take photos and mark those positions on a plan. It'll soon be apparent that the PV do not despoil the visual amenity especially if they are competing with satellite dishes, any shop or pub signs? and an assortment of roof coverings. If your neighbour opposite is OK with the panels then ask if you can take a look from their bedroom window and take another photo - that'll be the worst possible case. Make a case and present it to the planning officer and see if they still want to go through the unnecessary application process followed by an appeal (if permission is not granted). I can't believe they have so much time on their hands that they will still pursue this - given the amount of illegal back yard extensions and garage conversions I've seen up in your neck of the woods!
    The CLD is the same department but put a case together and present it informally first, if they'll meet you.If you make them feel good about themselves they sometimes see sense.
    My Planner was incredibly unhelpful until I presented 98 pages of evidence - I even had to explain why my wind turbine would interfere with the MOD Stategic Air Defence System. In the end it went through on delegated powers (didn't even need to go to a commitee) - I think he felt I had to work for it!
  3.  
    I did a CLD for a property in a National Park - albeit before we put the panels up. Don't know if I have a copy now, but I do remember having to deliver about 2kg of paper to the planning office (and then I had to go back when they asked for more!!). Would some of the text be of use if I can find it?
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2012
     
    Did I say would interfere with the MOD I mean't would NOT....
    But even if they ask a silly question, answer it with fact. Like" why don't you put it on the back roof?" Because that is north facing and will represent a reduction in performance of xx% making the scheme unworkable etc.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2012
     
    Have just sent this to the planning portal...


    Dear Sirs,

    I write with regard to this page on your web site..
    http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/solarpanels/

    Specifically I feel additional guidance must be provided on the following conditions:

    “Panels on a building should be sited, so far as is practicable, to minimise the effect on the appearance of the building. They should be sied, so far as is practicable, to minimise the effect on the amenity of the area.”

    It is clear some councils are interpreting these conditions very differently to others. At issue is the interpretation of “as far as practicable” when the only available south facing roof surface fronts a highway.

    Some councils are saying that putting the panels on the NORTH face would minimise the impact on the appearance of the building so by implication panels on the SOUTH face require Planning Permission. Clearly putting solar PV on the NORTH face isn’t “practicable” but they say “practicable” applies to the impact on the building NOT the impact on the solar panels.

    Other councils such as Guildford council interpret the GPDO in a totally different way. They say that it is the practicability of the solar system that matters so that solar panels on a south facing elevation fronting a highway would be permitted development. They give several examples:

    http://www.guildford.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=6396&p=0

    So a lack of clarity here is leading to totally different interpretations of the law. Some councils are asking people to submit retrospective planning applications for installations other councils say is permitted development.

    Please can you clarify the situation and/or refer me to additional guidance.

    Thank you.
  4.  
    Well done Colin. I hope it elicits a useful response.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2012 edited
     
    In the past they have replied to questions and corrections but can take awhile,
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2012
     
    Well done for asking CW. Please do post any response.

    You might also want to get that into the general "Red Tape Challenge" inbox (Cabinet Office?) if still open.

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2012
     
    Have now sent them much the same email.
    • CommentAuthorGavin_A
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2012
     
    "You are interpreting the phrase "so far as practicable" in relation to the efficiency of the installation however this term refers to whether or not the panels can be installed in such a way as to minimise the effect on the building/amenity of the area. For example to comply with these conditions we would usually expect the installation of solar panels on a mid-terraced property to be on the rear rather than the principal elevation. Whilst most properties benefit from permitted development rights not all householders are able to utilise them."

    leg to stand on they do not have.

    I'm leeds based and would be happy to meet with said planners to discuss their viewpoint on this.

    obviously I'd prefer it if you actual installers would do it, but understand not all have much of a clue when it comes to this sort of thing, and I'd hate for any of our local councils to start thinking they could apply PD rights in this way.
    • CommentAuthorGavin_A
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2012
     
    btw - the term 'practicable' or 'reasonably practicable' has been a common term in UK law, mostly health and safety and environmental law, since the late 1940's, with it's meaning confirmed as including a cost/benefit analysis in the case of Edwards v National Coal Board 1949.

    The so far as practicable in this legislation here definitely refers to the actual siting of the solar panels, and can only mean that if no other option is reasonably practicable, then the installing panels on the front of the roof is permitted development.

    In areas of particular amenity value, this would need to be taken into account when determining the balance between the options, but I'd think it would need to be an exceptionally visually important area for the north roof to be judged to be a reasonably practicable option.

    Essentially the law was drafted in order to create a presumption in favor of solar PV installations over visual considerations if no other practicable options were available, so the council is wrong.

    btw - the absense of the word 'reasonably' before the 'practicable' makes not difference, as all UK law is ultimately judged on it's reasonableness whether the word is used or not.
  5.  
    Posted By: EmmaGPS, re the CLD - is it a different department who would consider that? Are they not likely to just turn me down on the same grounds?


    Same department deals with CLD and planning applications. Correct terms are CLEUD for existing development and CLOPUD for proposed development.

    Planning policies don't come into Certificates of Lawfulness, the development is either Permitted Development or it isn't. If it needs planning permission (which I doubt) then policies would apply.
    Incidentally, PPS22 is cancelled as of yesterday, so are all the others.
    From now on it's just the NPPF and the Local Plan.

    Which way does your front roof slope face? South, with the rear slope facing North?
    Can you clarify for us so that we know whether it is clear cut or marginal?

    If it continues to an enforcement notice (unlikely) I can deal with it for you and I will claim costs against the Council in the event that they are acting unreasonably.
    The first stage would normally be them sending you a "Planning Contravention Notice"
    Have you had one of these yet? I doubt it. If you do get one you must respond within 21 days.
    If you get one contact me privately if you need help.
    If you want to send me the contact details of the Enforcement Officer (privately) I can call them and discuss it.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2012
     
    My limited experience of a difficult planning issue was resolved by me making it absolutely clear I would fight it all the way. They decided discretion was the better part of valour and just passed it through on the nod.

    Make it clear you will fight them all the way and let them decide if they want to risk losing.
    • CommentAuthorGavin_A
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2012
     
    tbf Dominic's the best person for actually talking to the council if he's willing.

    If you need someone to analyse the viability of the various mounting options that may have been available I can give an initial idea of this fairly quickly from google earth etc if you whisper me your address.

    A photo of the actual installation would also be helpful.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: Dominic Cooney
    Incidentally, PPS22 is cancelled as of yesterday, so are all the others.
    From now on it's just the NPPF and the Local Plan.


    Not so fast. I've only had a quick look but the NPPF refers to EN3 (in the case of wind energy at least) and EN3 appears to refer to the companion to PPS22, ETSU-R-97 etc
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2012
     
    That was my understanding of the situation, too, albeit on a brief read through of the NPPF.

    Dominic, can you refer us to anything specific viz the "cancellation" of PPS22 and its companion guidelines?

    :confused:
   
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