Green Building Forum - Reducing Domestic Energy Use

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

SteamyTea — Sat, 14 Apr 2012 07:42:38 +0100

With all the talk of the 'Green Deal', would it just be better to increase the price of domestic fuel to decrease the overall domestic energy use rather than have many quirky qualifying rules, caveats and potential over and under spends in different areas?

I get the feeling that the aims of the scheme have been lost in the objectives of getting there.

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

jamesingram — Sat, 14 Apr 2012 09:09:48 +0100

"I get the feeling that the aims of the scheme have been lost in the objectives of getting there."

Yes , no great change there , and from what I've heard , green deal replaces warm front and other insulation incentives , so sounds like a potential reduction in overall funding ( or money spent by consumer as green deal is self-funding) will result.
Just another book keeping fiddle and sudo-green policy ?

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

Joiner — Sat, 14 Apr 2012 09:24:30 +0100

I should put that idea to all the people who have recently lost their jobs in the round(s) of cost-cutting exercises forced on the country by the (still) rich bastards who got us into this mess in the first place, and who still insist that they deserve their obscene pay packages because "we" deserve the best people to do the job(s) they've recently proved they're total crap at!

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

DamonHD — Sat, 14 Apr 2012 09:28:23 +0100

As opposed to the totally crap politicians in countries that completely failed to curb corruption and massively inefficient working practices and take other hard political decisions over many years while effectively spending richer countries' money, sometimes fraudulently, to do so?

The political systems of Greece et al do NOT come out of this smelling of roses: more honesty with their populace and EU partners, and much of this could not have happened.

Rgds

Damon

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

Joiner — Sat, 14 Apr 2012 09:40:20 +0100

Errr.

But, yeah, them too!

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

RobinB — Sat, 14 Apr 2012 10:56:12 +0100

I think the first X units of gas and electricity per home should be cheapest with the cost per unit climbing steadily the more you use. It would also need to be shouted from the rooftops that this is how it works.

I'd like to see cheap insulation continuing to be available for the DIY market. Even badly applied it would probably do more good than many so-called professional installations. I don't know much about the Green deal but I think it is useful at least inasmuch as it put the idea of doing something "green" in people's heads.

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

Seret — Sat, 14 Apr 2012 11:13:13 +0100

Posted By: SteamyTeawould it just be better to increase the price of domestic fuel

The problem with this is that many people won't be able to identify an appropriate solution to the problem.
It's a mistake to assume that all people are:

a) Rational
b) Well-informed

You have to couple a push with a pull to get a real mass movement of people. So something like the Green Deal that lowers the barriers on the pull side, coupled with a push from the cost side, and good clear publicity about both would be considerably more successful than either on their own. Price is an excellent motivator, but that's of little use if people don't select effective action to take.

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

JSHarris — Sat, 14 Apr 2012 11:28:57 +0100

Posted By: RobinBI think the first X units of gas and electricity per home should be cheapest with the cost per unit climbing steadily the more you use. It would also need to be shouted from the rooftops that this is how it works.

Seems an excellent idea to me, as it would mean cheap energy for those that aren't profligate with it. The only fly in the ointment would be finding a way of dealing with real hardship cases, like those who are on a limited income yet have unavoidably high energy requirements. If the insulation grant system worked properly it would probably deal with the majority of such cases, but as we've seen from other comments here it doesn't seem to work at all well.

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

SteamyTea — Sat, 14 Apr 2012 14:04:13 +0100

Posted By: RobinBI think the first X units of gas and electricity per home should be cheapest

Should that be set at say 24kWh per person per day, priced at 10% of the lowest benefit paid?

That would gets what a single person gets in a bedsit.

So taking a stab at that

900 a year Council Tax
400 a year Water Rates
4200 Direct Cash Payments
1000 a year other things we dont see (free prescriptions, education, travel)
6500/year, kWh a year at 10% of that 650 for 8760 kWh/year or 7.5p/kWh

Or minimum wage at what ever it is, about 6.20 an hour (not really sure)
40 hour week, 12900/year
10% of that is 1290/year, cost per kWh would be, 15p/kWh (or about what electricity currently is)

Food for thought there already.

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

RobinB — Sat, 14 Apr 2012 19:10:02 +0100

Do it like income tax

1 Abolish standing charges
2 Charge 50% of current rate for first 25% of the current annual average usage.
3 Charge 100% (i.e. current rate) for next 50% and 150% for everything over that.

People in small flats/well insulated homes save a packet. People in average homes remain the same but have a clearly increased incentive to save.

People in large homes or profligate lose out. Energy saving measures suddenly make sense to a new tranche of the population. People start to look at EPC when considering somewhere to rent or buy.

Downside (and I'm sure there are more) - people in mansions may install two or more supplies - but they still wouldn't get too far before hitting the higher prices.

Child benefit for under 5s, disabled living allowance, pension credit etc tweaked where necessary to avoid undue hardship.

p23 of this DECC doc shows percentage of income spent on household fuel 1970 - 2009 http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/stats/climate-change/3224-great-britains-housing-energy-fact-file-2011.pdf

RobinB (aka Hood)

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

DamonHD — Sat, 14 Apr 2012 19:14:59 +0100

As I suggested before, make it per per person per month limit of 250kWh before the first rate step. That's loads. Other countries/systems have similar limits.

(We're on just over 30kWp/month/person here, ignoring our PV.)

Rgds

Damon

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

Joiner — Sun, 15 Apr 2012 10:24:59 +0100

Pensioners are already being hammered, so I suppose death by hypothermia is at least a relatively gentler one than starving to death.

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

marktime — Sun, 15 Apr 2012 11:51:50 +0100

Here's a benchmark for an active couple, one in, one at work.

DHW/cooking/lighting/power/all electric. No space heating to think of. Kill switches on everything except the AA+ fridge/freezer and ...err, the missus.

156 kW/month

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

JSHarris — Sun, 15 Apr 2012 11:59:03 +0100

Posted By: JoinerPensioners are already being hammered, so I suppose death by hypothermia is at least a relatively gentler one than starving to death.

Depends on the pension arrangements people choose to make when they're working. My annual pension increase notice arrived in the post yesterday, 5.2% (and I'm not old enough to collect my state pension yet........)

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

Joiner — Sun, 15 Apr 2012 12:48:05 +0100

Some don't have the luxury of being able to choose, and many of those who do still get hammered by financial downturns over which they have no control even if they do have the luxury of having control over the choice of pension company or how that company makes its investments.

Many pensioners in company schemes saw their annuities slashed when those companies went to the wall, for whatever reason. Not just the UK either. My brother's Air Canada pension went into freefall a while back and others face the same prospect... http://www.thestar.com/business/investing/article/602620--when-retirement-savings-tank

Those with index-linked pensions where the government are the company are pretty much the only ones cushioned, but those perks are being eyed-up as candidates for pruning, if not the chop.

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

JSHarris — Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:31:18 +0100

Pretty much everyone has a choice, in my view, it's whether or not they were prepared to accept the reduced income during their working life that's the real issue, plus the fact that many trusted people to manage their pension scheme who shouldn't have been allowed to run a corner shop.

My pension scheme doesn't exist any more, it was closed to new employees around 10 years ago and replaced with a less generous scheme. However, I did fairly deliberately choose to accept a significantly reduced income for many years in order to end up in the position I'm lucky enough to be in today. In the thread on heating engineers pay I mentioned my joiner friend who was serving his apprenticeship whilst I was studying. Right up until around 10 years ago he was earning more than me, not that I begrudge him that, he worked hard and was good at his job. Overall he's earned far more during his working life than I did, probably around double at a rough guess, yet he can't afford to retire and has recently realised that his pension is worth a fraction of what he thought it was.

He and I discussed this recently, as for years he's always taken the mickey out of my relatively poor pay and didn't reckon that my reasonably good pension was worth trading for his pretty good lifestyle. His views have changed markedly since I retired, and I sense a twinge of regret from him in our recent conversations. We both made choices back when we left school, I consciously (on the advice of my father, who was a banker) chose a low income, good pension, career, John (my joiner friend) chose a relatively high income career and looks like he's ended up with a not-too-good pension.

I get the feeling that a lot of people fail to pay enough attention to their pension arrangements, plus an awful lot of people have been well and truly ripped off by their pension providers.

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

ted — Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:48:54 +0100

My pension plan is simple.

Plan A - win the lottery
Plan B - get adopted by Angelina Jolie (Brad would have to go)
Plan C - become an MP

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

Joiner — Sun, 15 Apr 2012 14:03:59 +0100

And we'd all hate your guts because of any or all of the above!

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

Paul in Montreal — Sun, 15 Apr 2012 14:20:30 +0100

Posted By: SteamyTeaShould that be set at say 24kWh per person per day, priced at 10% of the lowest benefit paid?

HydroQuebec has its rate tariff like this. The 1st 30kWh per day are Can$0.0532 per kWh and any consumption above this is Can$0.0751 per kWh.

Note that our provincial energy price regulator just reduced the price of electricity by 0.5% this month.

Paul in Montreal.

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

SteamyTea — Sun, 15 Apr 2012 14:52:09 +0100

My pension plan is simple as well.
I am going to wait till I am getting to infirm to work, rent a van, drive it to Spain, load it up with drugs, bring it back and:

A, Sell them on the street and make a killing
B, Get caught and put inside where I wil be treated better than in a retirement home.

Sorted

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

SteamyTea — Sun, 15 Apr 2012 14:53:22 +0100

Posted By: Paul in MontrealThe 1st 30kWh per day are Can$0.0532 per kWh and any consumption above this is Can$0.0751 per kWh.

How do those prices relate to the UKs old definition of fuel poverty?

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

Paul in Montreal — Sun, 15 Apr 2012 17:09:59 +0100

Posted By: SteamyTeaHow do those prices relate to the UKs old definition of fuel poverty?

I'm not sure - but they have to be read in the context that 70% of the population here heat by electricity. That said, consumers cannot be disconnected for non-payment during the winter months.

Paul in Montreal

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

Jeff B — Sun, 15 Apr 2012 19:33:40 +0100

Posted By: JSHarris
Posted By: JoinerPensioners are already being hammered, so I suppose death by hypothermia is at least a relatively gentler one than starving to death.

Depends on the pension arrangements people choose to make when they're working. My annual pension increase notice arrived in the post yesterday, 5.2%" alt="" src="http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/bigsmile.gif" >(and I'm not old enough to collect my state pension yet........)

My annual pension notice arrived this week too. Thanks to the Government changing the rules on income drawdown pension schemes my private pension has decreased by almost 50% (yes, that's five zero percent). Thanks to the economic mess we are in, the pot has failed to grow at the anticipated rate of around 7% p.a. for the last several years and now the Government is panicking that I will use up all my private pension too quickly before I snuff it and may consequently come with my begging bowl to the state. Thankfully my OAP kicked in in January so that just about makes up the shortfall. So much for 40 years-worth of pension contributions!

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

Joiner — Sun, 15 Apr 2012 19:51:40 +0100

But just think what a marvellous incentive a hike in energy prices would be to you. Don't be so friggin selfish, Jeff, think of the planet for a change.

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

skyewright — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:16:57 +0100

Posted By: RobinBI'd like to see cheap insulation continuing to be available for the DIY market.

Useful for the (probably already) motivated with suitable skills (not that much is needed?), fitness, suitable transport and within reasonable range of a seemingly random selection of "big shed" DIY stores.

Not so useful for people outside that demographic on any of those scores?

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

skyewright — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:21:22 +0100

Posted By: DamonHDAs I suggested before, make it per per person per month limit of 250kWh before the first rate step. That's loads.

Averaged over the year, or fixed each month?
Flat limit across the country or different if mains gas not available as an option locally?

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

Jeff B — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 12:35:06 +0100

Posted By: JoinerBut just think what a marvellous incentive a hike in energy prices would be to you. Don't be so friggin selfish, Jeff, think of the planet for a change." alt="" src="http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/cry.gif" >" alt="" src="http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/cry.gif" >" alt="" src="http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/cry.gif" >" alt="" src="http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/cry.gif" >

Joiner - yes, on reflection how selfish of me to complain. I forgot of course, we are all in this together, according to Mr. Cameron and his friend Mr. Osborne.

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

DamonHD — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 12:36:56 +0100

That was intended to be electricity not including heating, averaged over the year.

Though one person's allowance would just about cover our heating also if we switched to a decent heat-pump.

So I think that could be with or without heating, with some (transitional) relief for E7 et all.

The aim is about 1.5tCO2e per person per year in primary energy, in whatever mix of electricity/gas/fossils they like. Many/most people in the UK would be within the thresholds right now without trying I suspect.

Rgds

Damon

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

SteamyTea — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 13:57:59 +0100

Posted By: DamonHDThe aim is about 1.5tCO2e per person per year in primary energy, in whatever mix of electricity/gas/fossils they like. Many/most people in the UK would be within the thresholds right now without trying I suspect.

That is just for the home though, for every kWh we use at home there is something like 4 used on our behalf.
My house is within that 1.5 tCO2e I think
4.5MWh, 2 people, 500kg CO2/MWh
Makes 1.125 each.

Reducing Domestic Energy Use

skyewright — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 13:58:27 +0100

Posted By: DamonHDThat was intended to be electricity not including heating, averaged over the year.
[SNIP]Many/most people in the UK would be within the thresholds right now without trying I suspect.

Thanks for the clarification.

The thresholds do seem reasonable in that light, though I suppose that another complication would be defining how many "persons" were associated with each supply point?