Sun, 19 Apr 2026 14:31:23 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144295#Comment_144295 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144295#Comment_144295 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 14:07:11 +0100 dickster https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144296#Comment_144296 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144296#Comment_144296 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 14:19:09 +0100 DamonHD
10m^3 would have covered our space heating demand this last (very mild) winter, and we could probably put that much into the loft in terms of space, conveniently close to a source of summer heat input...

I suspect the density/mass is too high, but it's tempting...

Rgds

Damon]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144297#Comment_144297 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144297#Comment_144297 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 14:22:37 +0100 EcoMind
I am not sure where you got those figures of €2,500 for 4m3, this is not the correct price.
If Piet did quote this price he was very wrong.
Xsorb will provide heat in addition to hot water if solar thermal tubes are filtered through the battery.
Also please be aware this gives direct heat through adsorption not generated by electricity or gas so it is extremely efficient. Without know the setup of your home I could not begin to calculate the necessary output needed.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144298#Comment_144298 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144298#Comment_144298 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 14:25:50 +0100 EcoMind
The patent covers Silica, Act Alumina and Zeolites]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144299#Comment_144299 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144299#Comment_144299 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 14:36:31 +0100 EcoMind
Excellent yes you memory serves you well, and you are well informed.
The storage of "Potential" heat can be help for years if necessary without dissipation.
When charging or during the desorption process the battery will take 90% of whatever heat it comes into contact with which can be stored leak free for the winter or indeed the following winter.

In effect you are drying Silica or Activated Alumina spheres with a huge surface area (up to 800m2 per gram). The more you dry it the better it will perform for you when it comes into contact with humidity.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144300#Comment_144300 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144300#Comment_144300 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 14:39:57 +0100 tony https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144301#Comment_144301 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144301#Comment_144301 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 14:40:21 +0100 EcoMind
Density is between 700/850kg per m3.
of course this could be spread thin across the joists in a slab or indeed in the walls or floors depending on the Architects preference.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144302#Comment_144302 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144302#Comment_144302 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 14:52:17 +0100 EcoMind
This Adsorbent does not have dust particles, the adsorbent is also used in the petrol and gas industries for refining so minimal contamination is required, another used for this adsorbent is for separating DNA strands albeit on a nano scale.
BUT the heat that the battery dischargers is done through Heat Exchangers, to avoid the dry heat irritating eyes etc.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144304#Comment_144304 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144304#Comment_144304 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 15:05:57 +0100 Chris P Bacon https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144305#Comment_144305 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144305#Comment_144305 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 15:06:03 +0100 renewablejohn Posted By: EcoMindrenewablejohn

The patent covers Silica, Act Alumina and Zeolites

So what does the patent cover as we have used Act Alumina for years drying timber and heating glasshouses.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144306#Comment_144306 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144306#Comment_144306 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 15:15:43 +0100 EcoMind Any particle on the surface of the sphere over time can impede performance. But the price of changing filters is low as it is simple.
The Spheres within the battery are used as I said earlier in refining natural gas, the sphere are hammered at high pressures and changed under these stressful conditions every 3000 cycles.
So with this in mind "theoretically" that would computer to 3000 years under far less stress than their natural gas counterparts.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144311#Comment_144311 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144311#Comment_144311 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 15:41:11 +0100 willie.macleod Posted By: EcoMind
I am not sure where you got those figures of €2,500 for 4m3, this is not the correct price.
If Piet did quote this price he was very wrong.


It would be helpful to have some indication of the price rather than simply say it is "wrong"?!]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144313#Comment_144313 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144313#Comment_144313 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 15:51:40 +0100 EcoMind https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144315#Comment_144315 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144315#Comment_144315 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 15:56:26 +0100 Phil.Chaddah-Duke
One thing I am missing, in a retrofit case could the the heat store be integrated into an existing MVHR system or does it simply replace the need for one completely? I can see that the extracted air from the MVHR could provide the humid air required as input to the heatstore but then I guess you would need additional fan and output points in the house to deliver the heat?]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144317#Comment_144317 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144317#Comment_144317 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 16:00:29 +0100 EcoMind
Willie : Sorry for half baked message.

The cost of a cubic metre is around £1,500, I have just talked to Piet Honkoop and he does not know where that quote came from.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144318#Comment_144318 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144318#Comment_144318 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 16:03:23 +0100 renewablejohn https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144321#Comment_144321 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144321#Comment_144321 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 16:09:33 +0100 Phil.Chaddah-Duke https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144331#Comment_144331 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144331#Comment_144331 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 16:22:52 +0100 Chris P Bacon
All acedemic in any case, if the economics don"t work at 750 euro a cube they are never going to work at £1500 a cube, you can strike seasonal stores off your list of suitable applications.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144335#Comment_144335 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144335#Comment_144335 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 16:31:32 +0100 EcoMind With shoot form the hip information like this you could end up killing someone and a whole lot of legal trouble you don't need,
Why do you do this ??
Some of the materials which come under the banner of adsorbents contain Arsenic and carcinogenic materials.
Also the materials come in various sizes and grades all of which can make a difference to performance and cost.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144337#Comment_144337 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144337#Comment_144337 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 16:37:43 +0100 EcoMind Could I see how you worked your sums out please ?]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144338#Comment_144338 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144338#Comment_144338 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 16:49:36 +0100 Nick Parsons
''RenewableJohn - Why do you try to give information about something you obviously know very little about, even if you were half correct (Which you are not) do you know what type of material to use Zeolite, Silicas or Activated Alumina. And if so with the reams of data you have at your disposal what size and type would you use.
With shoot form the hip information like this you could end up killing someone and a whole lot of legal trouble you don't need,
Why do you do this ??''

EcoMind, I was just thinking how nicely everyone was behaving after a very tetchy start, and then you become all confrontational again. We are all interested in what your product may do. In finding this out, we may conjecture a bit, we may go down some blind alleys, and we may say things that you think are wrong and even dangerous. Correct us, educate us, but please do it in a civil manner.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144339#Comment_144339 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144339#Comment_144339 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 16:51:10 +0100 Chris P Bacon Posted By: EcoMindChris
Could I see how you worked your sums out please ?

See Viking house's post above re: spending 2500euro to save 100 and get no hot water into the bargain, he's the professional passive house builder around here.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144341#Comment_144341 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144341#Comment_144341 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 17:00:08 +0100 DamonHD
http://www.earth.org.uk/note-on-Xsorb-interseasonal-heat-storage.html

So, 10m^3 or less of this stuff might eliminate the need for winter space heating if I've done my sums right. Expensive yes, but I'm more motivated by carbon reduction than financial payoff.

I'm looking to slip in some solar thermal or PV/T sometime soon, so potentially these could be combined to leave only the need for something to produce DHW in winter, which would be remarkable.

Could eliminate the need for an even more expensive GSHP when eliminating use of gas, so definitely work thinking about further.

(I'd need to talk to an SE about putting 8.5t in our loft, for example, but there are alternatives even in our small house.)

Rgds

Damon]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144350#Comment_144350 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144350#Comment_144350 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 17:34:11 +0100 renewablejohn Posted By: EcoMindRenewableJohn - Why do you try to give information about something you obviously know very little about, even if you were half correct (Which you are not) do you know what type of material to use Zeolite, Silicas or Activated Alumina. And if so with the reams of data you have at your disposal what size and type would you use.
With shoot form the hip information like this you could end up killing someone and a whole lot of legal trouble you don't need,
Why do you do this ??
Some of the materials which come under the banner of adsorbents contain Arsenic and carcinogenic materials.
Also the materials come in various sizes and grades all of which can make a difference to performance and cost.

Your right I do know very little about your specific application and I would reserve judgement until I see some hard facts. However in respect of Activated Alumina and its uses I probably know more than the average guy being in the business of recycling spent AA.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144360#Comment_144360 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144360#Comment_144360 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 18:12:52 +0100 EcoMind So to give someone advice of not only about breaking patent laws but possibly misinforming that all silica gels are the same is very dangerous.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144362#Comment_144362 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144362#Comment_144362 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 18:45:02 +0100 gcar90
What is the maximum temperature that your heat generating unit can produce and be run at practically. Could it be modified to heat water directly or would that make it meltdown?]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144363#Comment_144363 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144363#Comment_144363 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 18:54:54 +0100 Chris P Bacon
I'm currently building a 215m2 house which on paper performs a little above certified passive house levels. My annual space heating demand is estimated at around 4500kWhrs and I would estimate that my DHW demand will be around 3000kWhrs so around 250kwhrs per month.

I currently propose to satisfy that demand with a 5kW ASHP at a cost of around £8,000 installed and it is estimated to give a seasonal performance factor of 3 so electricity usage is likely to be around 2,500kWhrs.

I have looked at instead installing an oversized solar array and with self install could probably have 50m2 of evacuated tubes and a 1000 litre tank for the same cost as the heat pump.

Even this set up would not cover my total demand, the shortfall is probably a little less than the electricity usage of the heat pump at around 2,000kWhrs split evenly between space heating and DHW.

So in this situation I have lots of excess solar energy in the summer to charge the Xsorb with.

However I am going to need about 4m3 of Xsorb to make up my shortfall of space heating at a cost of £6000 (is that the installed price including the heat exchangers etc. or only the cost of the material?) and still need to heat water electrically.

All the above calculations take into account using all of my low temperature solar heated water either direct to UFH or pre heating DHW.

If I were using Economy 7 electricity to heat my cylinder to run the underfloor heating from, the 1,000kWhrs would cost me what? £70 - £100.

Even if I were focused on a zero carbon solution and went ahead and installed it, Xsorb would still leave me needing to use electricity for DHW.

At the end of the day I have decided that the heat pump is a more reliable solution, I don't have to worry about abnormally cold or long winters as I would with the solar solution or the unreliability of winter solar in general.

There is also the visual impact of 50m2 of evacuated tubes to consider and the fact that I can now leave my roof free to install PV panels in the future if I so please.

I am also considering to use some low cost solar air heating panels to reduce my space heating load.

So there you have my considerations in terms of space heating and seasonal stores, you are welcome to pick holes in it in any way you wish and try to convince me that using Xsorb makes sense for me.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144364#Comment_144364 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144364#Comment_144364 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 19:03:02 +0100 renewablejohn Posted By: EcoMindThe reason I got upset with ignorant comment is the fact it can kill if the wrong materials are used.
So to give someone advice of not only about breaking patent laws but possibly misinforming that all silica gels are the same is very dangerous.http://1.2.3.11/bmi/www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/sad.gif" alt="" title="" >

Ecomind

Stop being so dramatic I have only ever been talking about Activated Alumina and that is not going to kill anyone unless you drop a tonne bag on your head. See the BOC health and safety sheet. Standard precaution for dust and thats all.

http://people.ccmr.cornell.edu/~dieck/p120-09-00.pdf]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144365#Comment_144365 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144365#Comment_144365 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 19:13:02 +0100 renewablejohn Posted By: EcoMind
So to give someone advice of not only about breaking patent laws but possibly misinforming that all silica gels are the same is very dangerous.http://1.2.3.11/bmi/www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/sad.gif" alt="" title="" >

Okay so what is so different in your patents lodged in 2011 that was not referred to in the article dated 1979 which SteveZ highlighted earlier in the thread. All I have been doing is referring to the 1979 article which as Steve suggests is not rocket science. I have stuck with what I know in respect of Activated Alumina but the 1979 article does describe other options available.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144368#Comment_144368 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&Focus=144368#Comment_144368 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 20:11:04 +0100 Jeff B
We use about 11,000 kWh p.a. for space heating our 180 sq metre dormer bungalow. The heating is on for about 7 months of the year, with maximum usage during the 5 months from between October and February (inc). We use wood pellets, about 2.5 thousand kg p.a., at a cost of approx £500. We have no MHVR system, a standard “wet” C/H system heated by a wood pellet boiler, 8 sq meters of solar thermal panels, a 3.9 kPa solar PV system and a 300 litre thermal store.

So:

Can the Xsorb heat battery be of any use to us? If so:

What would be the (approx) cost of an Xsorb system to provide all our space heating requirement?
What additional equipment would we have to invest in?
What modifications would we have to make to our existing system?]]>