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General: Xsorb inter-seasonal heat storage!

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    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
    Posted By: tony: “I cannot still see how usefully large amounts of energy could be stored.”

    Tony, is there something wrong in this post?:

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946&page=1#Comment_142860

    We've since established that the heat of adsorption is somewhat greater than that of fusion but the basic orders of magnitude still seem to be about right.

    What bothers me is that net energy going into the house comes, ultimately, from the latent heat of the water vapour in the incoming air. To get enough energy out of the store when the external air is cold and therefore, in absolute humidity terms, fairly dry I think you'd have to over ventilate the house which seems counter productive.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesTo get enough energy out of the store when the external air is cold and therefore, in absolute humidity terms, fairly dry I think you'd have to over ventilate the house which seems counter productive.

    Or run it through an air to air heat exchanger maybe?
    • CommentAuthorEcoMind
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
    I started a thread 4/5 hours back called "The Worlds First Heat Battery" trying to gain information, obviously construed as a marketing exercise even though nobody here could possibly be a buyer.
    I am XSORB I am BLAMON and I have something that will change the world and all I have seen so far is a lost fiver + VAT.
    Not impressed by the quality of content so far.:sad:
    Money BACK ???
    Please
  4.  
    Welcome to the forum, Ecomind. You may not have intended it to be a marketing exercise, but it certainly sounded like one. As to '' nobody here could possibly be a buyer'' I disagree. You refer to apparently domestic applications and your post suggests that you are selling. Indeed since you are XSORB and BLAMON I would expect you to want to sell te technology. We may have been mistaken as to your intention, but it certainly sounded like a sales pitch. I am most sorry you feel you have wasted £6. I have been a forum member for about 4 years, and my payment for forum membership has been one of the best and most rewarding investments I have ever made.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
  6.  
    ST, dunno, 'cause it wants me to sign up to LinkedIn. What does it say?
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: EcoMindI am XSORB I am BLAMON and I have something that will change the world and all I have seen so far is a lost fiver + VAT.
    Not impressed by the quality of content so far.

    Not impressed by the quality of your “input”, either.

    Still, there are people on this forum trying to get to grips with the technology described on the rather sketchy web site. We won't take your word for anything much; we want to understand it well enough to be really comfortable that it works in a useful way but we're friendly in the sense that we would like to be shown that it works.

    How about helping us improve our understanding rather than just throwing your weight around?

    Yours sincerely,

    A potential customer.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaOr run it through an air to air heat exchanger maybe?

    Run what through an air-to-air heat exchanger? Exchanging heat with what?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
    Ed
    Run the winter air though an A2A so that you don't have to over ventilate the house, or have I missed something?

    Back to what JSH was saying about the surface area being very great with zeolites. Is it the surface area that is the key to the energy storage, or does the chemical compound do something magical that only chemists understand and physicist don't.
    If you greatly increase the surface area to volume/mass of something you can often change the the characterises of how it absorbs or discharges energy. Is there not a parallel to capacitors that here?
    I hated chemistry, can't get a spanner on those molecules :devil:
    • CommentAuthorEcoMind
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
    A little egotistical gents don't you think? do you want ground breaking technology or are you still debating the world is flat.
    SteamyTea - Zeolites are superb, BUT commercially too expensive. Our patent covers Act Alumina, Silica and Zeolites.
    If I wanted to know something about a pioneering technology I wouldn't try to take a moral high ground on the subject I know nothing about, I have two professors and 5 doctors pushing this, and then I have the Green building forum building ego's posturing.???
    IF someone has a qualified question without trying to be the oracle of all things green in this forum I would be happy to answer.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
    Einstein asked "what is the density of the universe"

    What density of energy storage are you offering, how much energy do you have to put in to get 1kWh out, how large a store will I need to store 10,000kWh ?
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
    EcoMind, perhaps it would be good if you could explain how a typical set up might work in terms of airflow rates, humidities and temperatures at different points in the system.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
    Posted By: SteamyTea: “Run the winter air though an A2A so that you don't have to over ventilate the house, or have I missed something?”

    Their system already has an exchanger:

    http://new.xsorb.nl/?page_id=18

    Are you suggesting something different? Again, exchanging heat with what?
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: EcoMind</cite>A little egotistical gents don't you think? do you want ground breaking technology or are you still debating the world is flat.
    SteamyTea - Zeolites are superb, BUT commercially too expensive. Our patent covers Act Alumina, Silica and Zeolites.
    If I wanted to know something about a pioneering technology I wouldn't try to take a moral high ground on the subject I know nothing about, I have two professors and 5 doctors pushing this, and then I have the Green building forum building ego's posturing.???
    IF someone has a qualified question without trying to be the oracle of all things green in this forum I would be happy to answer.</blockquote>

    Sorry you feel this way, but perhaps worth noting that there are quite a few well-qualified (to PhD level) people on this forum, including chemists, physicists, various flavours of engineers as well as a wide range of people with much practical building knowledge and experience.

    The technology of heat storage using reversible reactions is interesting, and although it's been widely used in industrial processes for a long time, its use in domestic scale interseasonal heat storage is novel. As you may have gathered, we have discussed and debated ways of achieving practical domestic scale interseasonal heat storage here in some depth already, and at least two forum members have built practical systems into houses, so do have some knowledge of the topic.

    If your system is efficient, affordable and can be practically implemented at a domestic scale, then there would be a lot of interest, but that does mean that we'd be looking for evidence of things like the size and mass needed to store a given quantity of heat, the conversion efficiency (in terms of kWh in to kWh out) and the range of operating temperatures. Please don't be offended at these questions, you have advertised a product to an enthusiastic audience of people with a fair amount of knowledge of the topic, so should, perhaps, expect some detailed questions.
    • CommentAuthorEcoMind
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012
     
    This Battery holds 1GJ(280kwhr) per cubic mtr (850kg)
    1 water gauge or 50 cubic mtrs per person per hour (Passiv Haus 6 Air Volume changes per day) after talks with various HRS/HVAC companies there in no problem with air pressure or flows or control mechanisms.
    NO atmospheric pressure or Vacuum needed.
    Battery is charged in almost every possible way, even during winter through Solar Thermal Tubes entering the box before going on to the thermal store thus enabling hot water AND direct heat.
    We estimate for the average modern house will need 3 Cubic mtrs.
    DONT think of this as a boiler or a storage heat, it is 90% efficient at storing heat potential.
    It is designed to keep ambient temperature constant and exchanges heat for humidity, humidity that we all generate through breathing, baths, cooking (Average humidity in UK is 60/80%)
    The battery is designed to work with other heat sources and cover the periods during winter when Solar, Heat Pumps just cannot function suitably.
    In summation the battery stores the heat potential all summer long and can release that heat gradually over the winter months, using direct heat.
    The battery stores heat potential NOT heat so it is safe to touch and does not need insulation from outside cold air. In can be put into walls, floors, the garage or in the foundations.
    • CommentAuthorEcoMind
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012
     
    PS - this is NOT fusion/Fraction and/or Phase change.
    • CommentAuthorEcoMind
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012
     
    We are already in talks with Professor Coley of Bath with regard to taking the Passiv Haus protocol one step further through the TSB(hopefully)
    For those with Phd's (Hopefully in something associated with Sustainable Building design) you will need to think outside the box here and beyond the normal parameters on this product. You will need to know the chemical process of Adsorption and try to imagine 1 gram of this battery material has a surface area of 200/850 m2.
  18.  
    Posted By: EcoMindeven during winter through Solar Thermal Tubes entering the box before going on to the thermal store thus enabling hot water AND direct heat.


    Hi Neil can you please confirm if it is possible for the Xsorb material to simultaneously be charged and dis-charged?

    My (limited) understanding of other similar materials is that they must be cycled i.e. charged-discharged-charged and so on.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012 edited
     
    Thank you: some good numbers to get teeth into.

    At 280kWh/m^3 I could just about conceive of carrying enough heat from summer to winter to eliminate the need for much of our central heating in our small house. We also had way too high RH this last winter, so I see a certain synergy possible there too.

    It would be very interesting to try some of this Xsorb out and report findings.

    Rgds

    Damon
  20.  
    Posted By: EcoMindThis Battery holds 1GJ(280kwhr) per cubic mtr (850kg)


    Do you have any independent tests to back up that claim Neil?

    It's some time ago but all I can find is that the ITW tested it at 130kWh/m3
    • CommentAuthorEcoMind
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012
     
    Thanks your questions.

    The output is directly proportionate to the amount of humidity that the battery comes into contact with.
    The reaction of Adsorption is in two parts.

    1) the heat of wetting (mild phase change) up to 1.7MJ per KG
    2) The heat of adsorption 2.3MJ per KG

    Although the average heat of adsorption is 3.4MJ per Kg so you can see our claims of 1GJ is conservative as are all our caims.
    The average Adsorption heat recovery is 40% higher than condensation heat recovery.
    • CommentAuthorEcoMind
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012
     
    Chris we are working with Professor Coley who will independently verify these figures once installed into a test building, which we have already got at planning permission for and this has already be gutted and builders should be onsite within the a month but two years of laboratory tests using various charging methods have confirmed these figures, which are out there in the public domain under Adsorption.
  23.  
    Hi Neil

    I may be being a bit dim but bear with me! A thought has crossed my mind with regard to safety within a domestic situation, from information posted previously it would appear to release the energy held within the battery humid air has to be passed through the non-pressurised heat battery. Adsorption of moisture within the air by the Xsorb releases energy. This would imply a fairly open construction to allow air to pass through the battery. What happens if a house should be flooded, either through an extreme event or possibly a plumbing leak? Is the result likely to be an explosive release of energy if the water comes into contact with the contents of the heat battery?
  24.  
    Hi EcoMind, I spoke to Piet Honkoop and he was going to send me some tests showing the amount of energy stored.
    djh makes a good point, €2,500 for 4m3 of Xsorb but I still have to hook it up to the HRV system to save €100 worth of electricity and I have to heat the hot water with electricity anyway.

    A guy told me yesterday that there was a 2Kw wind turbine on ebay for €500 but I haven’t been able to find it, the quest continues! How many kWh/day would that give me in December? I'm missing about 10kWh/day for hot water and 10kWh/day for heating. Could I heat water directly with a 12/24W turbine? If this is going off topic I'll start a new thread!
  25.  
    ''a 2Kw wind turbine on ebay for €500 but I haven’t been able to find it, the quest continues! How many kWh/day would that give me in December?''

    And how many Decembers would it last for? :) I think generally you get what you pay for (except I agree it is more complicated than that in te light of recent WT discussions). I have only heard one very cheap turbine (on the television!) and it appeared very noisy in the context of the general noise level.
  26.  
    Ecomind

    I have just become interested when you mentioned Act Alumina being one of your patents. Is this part of your Xsorb materials or has it been discounted.
    • CommentAuthorbeelbeebub
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012
     
    Please bear in mind the following is conjecture based on my recollections of previous work. If I have made an error I will be happy to be corrected.

    I have no particular issue with the energy density being touted.

    However I would like to understand what the efficiency of the system is in terms of energy in to energy out.

    In a water based system it is relatively easy to achieve a high level of efficiency for inputting and extracting the heat. The primary inefficiency is the temperature loss off the store over time. Insulation can reduce this but never eliminate it.

    Effectively the energy equation looks like:

    energy out = efficiency of extracting x ((energy in x efficiency of charging) - energy lost in storage)

    Where efficiency of extracting and efficiency of charging are close to 1 but energy lost in storage is significant

    With the Xsorb system the losses of energy in storage are minimal (essentially related to any humidity that unintentionally enters the material bed)

    However, I remember we had large inefficiencies in charging ("drying out") the material. The energy required to re-dry the material was several times energy we managed to extract.

    So the efficiency of charging term was (significantly) less than 1.

    I was wondering how Xsorb have managed to overcome this and what their current efficiency of charging is.

    Note: Our experiments were not optimised for charging, although some work was done and I remember there being a definite limit to the efficiency of charging

    Also if the heat source were to be excess solar thermal energy (after the DHW store has been fully charged) then I can imagine that the overall efficiency is unimportant (as the input energy is essentially waste at that point)
    • CommentAuthorSteveZ
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012
     
    Now the initial bad tempered exchanges seem to be abating, this topic is fascinating. As a bit of background reading for anyone interested, there is a Canadian paper from 1979 which makes comparisons of different materials and is fairly easy to follow, even for a bear of little brain, like me.

    http://engineering.ucsb.edu/~yuen/references/ref-1.pdf

    The adsorption process appears to be controllable, interruptible and, using two systems in parallel, continuous. If the energy numbers and costs add up, it could be a winner for whole season heating or, more likely for retrofit, on-demand use and recharge from any suitable source. I am definitely interested, especially after just ordering more heating oil yesterday - yikes!!
    • CommentAuthorEcoMind
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012
     
    Hi timberframing

    Your right on silica this could ruin the adsorbent so it would be advisable to keep it isolated just as you would with wiring, it there was any risk of flooding or indeed heavy humidity such as a swimming pool we would use activated alumina. This would never combust or give off huge heat if it was flooded.
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesPosted By: SteamyTea: “Run the winter air though an A2A so that you don't have to over ventilate the house, or have I missed something?”
    Their system already has an exchanger:
    Are you suggesting something different? Again, exchanging heat with what?

    My interpretation of Nick's suggestion was that he had in mind

    Humid outdoor air => XSORB => A2A warm dried outdoor air against indoor air => exhaust cooled dried outdoor air to the outside & recirculate the warmed indoor air as space heating.

    i.e. making use of a resource abundant in at least parts of the UK (humid outdoor air) without any need to increase ventilation?

    I could of course be wrong...

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