Green Building Forum - Using grey water on the garden

Using grey water on the garden

SteamyTea — Sat, 28 Apr 2012 10:08:58 +0100

Ah, Epsom salts.
"Has the bottom fallen out of your world? Take Epsom Salts and feel the World fall out your bottom!"

I am such a schoolboy, I really must grow up to be taken seriously

Using grey water on the garden

Seret — Sat, 28 Apr 2012 10:33:14 +0100

Posted By: fostertomMagnesium shortage in the source does result in xs calcium take-up, which the body then dumps into soft tissue e.g. granular deposits causing the agony of frozen shoulder, also sclerosis in blood vessels, macular degeneration and lots more.

Well if there's an actual deficiency then I'm sure you can get all sorts of wrongness occurring. But I'm pretty sure once the magnesium level was up to the required level then homeostasis would kick in and start dumping any excess.

Sounds like you're talking from experience though, so any advice on dealing with it should probably come from your GP.

Using grey water on the garden

joe90 — Sat, 28 Apr 2012 10:37:10 +0100

ST,

I was having a bad day till I read your post above, well done mate you cheered me up. On a serious note I wholeheartily agree that modern agriculture is stripping the soil of balanced nutrients, another reason I want to grow my own and use animal shit not chemicals, far healthier.

Using grey water on the garden

fostertom — Sat, 28 Apr 2012 10:57:07 +0100

The point being that even the animal shit is short of many nutrients these days, because it's eaten the same deficient stuff as us because the soils's deficient, and so on.

So how to replenish the whole numerous complex of nutrients, often obscure trace nutrients, when chemical agriculture unsubtly focusses only on NPK and a few more, which has the effect of 'dumbing-down' the soil, driving the complexities out?

As I say, 'more compost' doesn't do it, because the compost is itself deficient, having grown on same deficient soils.

Using grey water on the garden

joe90 — Sat, 28 Apr 2012 12:28:13 +0100

fostertom,

I take your point but if I grow my own (veg and animals) on soil not previously used for monoculture then the soil should not be depleted !, even if it has, I will be starting to rectify the situation. We have to start somewhere and I think polyculture is the way to start this rectification process.

Oh and water with bathwater (not really off topic)

Using grey water on the garden

fostertom — Sat, 28 Apr 2012 13:31:43 +0100

sounds good.

Using grey water on the garden

SteamyTea — Sat, 28 Apr 2012 14:04:27 +0100

Joe90

Glad I cheered you up

Using grey water on the garden

wookey — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 23:20:04 +0100

Bath/shower water lasts about a week in a cool north-facing bathroom before starting to go manky. More like 3 days in summer or otherwise warm room. We've used grey-water on the garden after draining into a butt, and an above-ground butt on south side of building goes quite manky and smelly after a while (month or two?).

If you had underground storage I think that would work reasonably well for keeping grey water for more than a few days. Without that you do need to use it pretty quickly. Obviously more extensive filtering with sand beds or reed beds could no doubt work well.

In general it's a lot easier to collect rainwater - just have loads of storage.

Using grey water on the garden

jms452 — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:28:40 +0100

Used grey water on the garden all last summer with no issues - all used within a few hours.

Storage needn't be an issue as most people shower every day or two so just use it as you generate it.

Epson salts can be used on the garden tom - you can buy an agricultural (cheaper) version - although 1Kg would be way too much to apply in one go. Tomatoes in particular like extra magnesium.

Using grey water on the garden

fostertom — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:57:30 +0100

Ah, thanks for that jms452, so the idea has legs yet. Any idea what recommended application, kg/m2 of soil, wd be - and how often? Would application at higher than recommended rate cause problems? It's v soluble so wd wash thro and spread out. I wonder what the optimum level wd be (not just a minimum, calculated from plant uptake requirement), how the soil cd be tested, and how rapidly it shd be brought up to level.

And after that, iodine - another shortage in modern soils after chemical horticulture.

Using grey water on the garden

jms452 — Tue, 01 May 2012 09:45:55 +0100

Magnesium is a secondary nutrient - i.e. they need lots of N, P and K but not much of the others.

Can't remember what it says on box I have but I just add a teaspoon to the watering can occasionally.

Various gardening websites will show you pictures of tomato leaves with various deficiencies which is my feedback.

no pretty photos but I found the following link informative (mentions epson salts too):
http://www.dgsgardening.btinternet.co.uk/fertilizer.htm

Using grey water on the garden

djh — Tue, 01 May 2012 13:29:06 +0100

Hmm, I think the worry about micro-nutrients is overdone. What you're all forgetting about is homeopathy. Since the soil once had magnesium in it, it doesn't matter if it doesn't have any magnesium now. It can still remember that it once had magnesium, and so the benefit remains.

Now some may be sceptical, but I've oversimplified the explanation so here's the scientific test. Soil isn't really homeopathic, of course; it's the water in the soil that's homeopathic. And sure enough, if you take the water out of the soil, all the plants die, because they no longer have the benefit of all the homeopathic micro-nutrients.

Using grey water on the garden

JSHarris — Tue, 01 May 2012 13:37:01 +0100

Posted By: djhHmm, I think the worry about micro-nutrients is overdone. What you're all forgetting about is homeopathy. Since the soil once had magnesium in it, it doesn't matter if it doesn't have any magnesium now. It can still remember that it once had magnesium, and so the benefit remains.

Now some may be sceptical, but I've oversimplified the explanation so here's the scientific test. Soil isn't really homeopathic, of course; it's the water in the soil that's homeopathic. And sure enough, if you take the water out of the soil, all the plants die, because they no longer have the benefit of all the homeopathic micro-nutrients.

Truly excellent. I do wish there was an "applaud" smiley on this forum.............

Using grey water on the garden

fostertom — Tue, 01 May 2012 23:16:14 +0100

I'd award a smiley that means 'clever', Dick, I mean Dave.

Using grey water on the garden

SteamyTea — Wed, 02 May 2012 08:18:30 +0100

As homoeopathy works best when the concentration is reduced to a memory, does that mean adding any chemicals will cause an overdoes. Is that way it does not work on fish
(though I found that taking them out of water made them very active for a while, the fish not the chemicals)

Using grey water on the garden

fostertom — Wed, 02 May 2012 10:18:10 +0100

Homeopathy ONLY works when the concentration is reduced to a memory, tho doesn't mind if molecules of the original substance are still present after dilution, which in high ('single shot magic bullet') 1M potency would be by 10 to the power of 1000. So adding chemicals is irrelevant to the homeopathic process, tho might have its own gross effect.

ST's question, and djh's irony, show ignorance born of contempt, which is of course born of ignorance - a common trait in rationalists/scientists, in my repeated experience. Defence-by-attack and ridicule against fear of imagined threat. You don't even understand what homeopathy aims to achieve, so are you fit to comment? I'll tell you:

Homeopthy aims to cure, by administration of a diluted-to-oblivion ('potentised') substance, symptoms (as encyclopedically recorded) that result from the presence of gross (incl 'trace') quantities of the same substance. Thus if I'm suffering symptoms (e.g. mental confusion, depression) typical of mercury poisoning, then potentised mercury (in several different compound varieties) might be the homeopathic remedy.

So it's fatuous to talk of 'homeopathic micro-nutrients', and for ST to say that you can overdose on homeopathy, as if a potentised sample is 'chemicals'.

Until you grasp that principle, you have no basis to judge efficacy or not, so stop parading your second-hand prejudices.

Using grey water on the garden

jms452 — Wed, 02 May 2012 12:43:31 +0100

Back to the original discussion a key 'problem' with grey water use for food crops is the inability to state that it is 100% safe.

You might joke about micro (part per million levels) but there are chemicals out there that are pretty toxic at 1/1000 of that (although if they are in your grey water you already have some serious issues)- and that's before you start thinking about things that bio-accumulate.

Then there are bacterial hazards.

And in the extreme if you were having chemotherapy your grey water could even be slightly radioactive!

Don't get me wrong I think grey water use is great and selectively use it myself even on food crops but in this perceived risk society its hard to see it taking off in a mainstream fashion - especially when water is cheap and some seem to see a hosepipe ban as an infringement of their human rights.

Using grey water on the garden

DamonHD — Wed, 02 May 2012 13:05:12 +0100

I'm afraid that it is fatuous to talk of homeopathy and then use any of the tools of science such as arithmetic or logic that it flies in the face of.

Sorry about that.

Rgds

Damon

Using grey water on the garden

fostertom — Wed, 02 May 2012 13:31:48 +0100

Damon, you have a lot of technical experience and you share it most authoritatively, but on this your style of certainty shows only ignorance and prejudice. Sorry about that.

Using grey water on the garden

djh — Wed, 02 May 2012 14:54:58 +0100

Posted By: fostertomST's question, and djh's irony, show ignorance born of contempt

Tom, my joke says nothing at all about my knowledge or ignorance of the principles and practice of homeopathy and certainly does not indicate contempt. I believe you owe me an apology.

And it's an unfortunate principle of democracy that everybody is allowed to comment, so try to switch your sense of humour back on and get over it.

Using grey water on the garden

fostertom — Wed, 02 May 2012 17:13:06 +0100

OK, sorry Dave, but if just an kindly joke, a knowing bending of 'how it works', well it's hard to tell apart from the intentional ridicule that's going around. I think JSH's applause was as the latter, as a put-down - am I wrong?

I'm only pushing this - not homeopathy particularly, but resonance effects in general because I feel they are the overlooked factor - explanation and tool/technique - in every kind of phenomenon in the cosmos, macro, micro and middle sized, inanimate and living. Their action is subtle, not drawn to science's attention by everyday detection, and as disturbing to grasp as the wierdnesses of quantum theory, chaos and indeterminacy etc.

As my interests on GBF are not just economic and technical, but about humans in the context of Gaia - deep Permaculture etc - I want to speculate about resonance effects as key to our understanding, and what we can do with it.

Does no one on GBF know what I'm talking about?

Using grey water on the garden

Nick Parsons — Wed, 02 May 2012 17:39:10 +0100

'' I think JSH's applause was as the latter, as a put-down - am I wrong?''

I think you may be. I laughed too. I think djh's comments are best described as wry, certainly not riducule as I read it, and it looks as if JSH was as amused by that wry humour as I was.

Using grey water on the garden

JSHarris — Wed, 02 May 2012 17:41:57 +0100

Posted By: fostertom I think JSH's applause was as the latter, as a put-down - am I wrong?

Yes, you're wrong, I'm afraid. I was just applauding djh's amusing creativity, nothing else. It happened to make me chuckle, a bit like the time (many years ago now) when I asked my vegetarian, Buddhist, mother in law if the leather sandals she was wearing came from a cow that had died from natural causes...............

Using grey water on the garden

fostertom — Wed, 02 May 2012 19:37:35 +0100

OK sorry I've got over sensitive. Must take a homeopathic pill. Pax?

Well my mum knew strange people like Buddhists and worked as a sec for the Homeopathic Assoc in London thro the blitz (strange to find that such things continued thro the war) and became a brilliant amateur homeopath, as has my sister.

AFAIC my life was 'saved' by a proper medical Dr (after others just offered the usual suppressants) whose surgery was (is) more like a lab filled with resonance-medicine electronics from Germany and points east (where such things are well accepted e.g. Russian cosmonauts' Kosmed Startrek-style diagnosis and treatment device).

Modern resonance medicine in its many forms streamlines traditional homeopathy (years of training) in various ways, principally by including feedback from patient and/or practitioner's body, via electronic or Kinesiological response to proffered (hypothesis) potentised substance/remedies, potencies, frequencies of administration etc.

The remedy itself is never a 'chemical' or 'drug' having gross, blunt effect as it floods the body's receptors; instead is a carrier of a well-chosen complex weak harmonic signal that has been empirically found to 'remind' the homeostatic immune system of something it's got confused about or forgotten, due to immune overwhelm. As I see it, the body goes into active mode generating hypothesis signals from its own information/experience, until a resonant match is achieved, at which point 'job done', pretty well. No match, no effect, so resonance medicine is inherently 'safe'.

Using grey water on the garden

SteamyTea — Wed, 02 May 2012 20:01:50 +0100

Posted By: fostertomDoes no one on GBF know what I'm talking about?

Sounds like English but makes no sense.

Using grey water on the garden

fostertom — Wed, 02 May 2012 21:34:22 +0100

Anyone else?

Using grey water on the garden

JSHarris — Wed, 02 May 2012 21:51:37 +0100

'Fraid not, Tom. It's the mix of pseudo science and belief that gets me. Belief is fine, I have no problem with whatever people choose to have faith in, or with. Dressing it up as science is just plain wrong, IMHO, as science seeks to hypothesise, theorise and experiment in order to prove or disprove, whilst pseudo science makes unsubstantiated and unproven claims, using false scientific jargon to try and add credence to their point of view.

Homoeopathy has been shown to only provide benefit when belief and faith are involved, just as is the case with many other placebo "treatments" and faith healing. This isn't to say that it doesn't work, just that it doesn't work in the way the snake oil salesmen who push it advertise it as working.

Mixing faith and science in an attempt to explain something that is unprovable is simply wrong. Using terms with a specific meaning, like resonance, to try and make mumbo jumbo sound more convincing is also wrong. If something uses science to produce an effect, then that effect will be measurable and quantifiable. Please don't dress up faith and belief as science, Tom, as it discredits both (and, FWIW, I am pretty much convinced that faith healing works in many people, so I'm not wholly in the "only science works" camp).

Using grey water on the garden

joe90 — Wed, 02 May 2012 22:09:52 +0100

Well in my experience, FWIW, I tried homeopathy after being diagnosed with a severe stomach problem because a close friend of mine was cured/helped by homeopathy so I was not sceptical to start with. Unfortunately it did nothing for me and I was genuinely suprised and dissapointed. Years later after much surgery I am better but suffer problems related to all the surgery. Whilst doing much research into my wifes cancer I now believe I could have avoided the surgery through other life style changes (diet etc) but we all have 20/20 hindsite,

Science cannot prove/disprove some of the alternative treatments out there, look at acupuncture, all those chinese cannot be wrong?. but I firmly believe that we are all different and whilst some cures work on some people they wont work for everyone.

I still think rainwater harvesting is easier that grey water re-use

Using grey water on the garden

SteamyTea — Thu, 03 May 2012 06:56:26 +0100

Posted By: joe90I still think rainwater harvesting is easier that grey water re-use

Was a lady on the radio saying the exact same thing yesterday.

Using grey water on the garden

fostertom — Thu, 03 May 2012 10:07:58 +0100

Thanks Joe, sounds like you've been through it - I'd have wished you some happier results. Yes, we often learn from the event, often too late, then the next generation has to do it all again for themselves.

Seems to me that there's no guarantees of enduring health, or of cures, whatever we do - the often unconscious roots of deterioration are too deeply hidden, and the whole cosmos is ambiguous anyway. But best chance of cure, is personal and bodily involvement in the process - incl but not limited to what I call Intentionality.

Given that priority, it's less important whether it's via mainstream or 'alternative' medicine. Unfortunately the mainstream medical profession has lost its traditional practices - 'bedside manner' - aimed at fostering morale and self-healing, instead has turned into highly trained experts in the nuances and inter-relationships of drugs, expertly administered to passive bodies that are seen as complex machines that hopefully will respond as predicted. But often the resources are missing, to closely monitor the machine's response, so swift adjustment to the treatment often come days or weeks too late. That's what happened to my dad - he died of drugs and side effects, not of his complaint.

A modern NHS hospital is fantastic, awesome, at acute emergencies - but completely hopeless at subsequent cure. It's hard to imagine an environment and ethos that could more efficiently extinguish a patient's self-responsibility and involvement in his/her cure. Health professionals still know that patient morale is key to healing, but that's like a private, off-syllabus thing, that the 'evidence-based' system itself gives negligible support to.

It's no coincidence that pharmaceutical profits are maximised by an increasingly unwell population lying in rows passively submitting to expert administration of potions. The only potions allowed are those that somehow have better-than-50% chance of 'success' despite absence of patient/practitioner involvement/Intentionality.

Anything involving the latter is demeaned as 'placebo', 'faith-healing', 'scam' even. It may be admitted that the latter is successful, but not for use here, because 'unscientific', not 'evidence-based'. The lack, even contra-indication, of 'evidence' just could be because the first thing that science does is to eliminate subject/experimenter involvement/Intentionality, as experimental error.

It's said that the name given to 'alternative' medicine that works is - 'medicine'. But that's only a half-truth. 'Alternative' medicine that, typically (unlike modern mainstream medicine) incorporates and relies upon patient/practitioner involvement/Intentionality as part of its functioning, is of no interest profit-wise to the pharmaceutical industry, which has enlisted the medical profession in enforcing an 'evidence-based' criterion which specifically disregards that involvement/Intentionality as 'unscientific'.

To return, patient/practitioner's personal and bodily involvement/Intentionality is at least as important in a cure, as the potion administered. In a way I'd care less, whether mainstream drugs, or 'alternatives' e.g. homeopathic, because given real involvement/Intentionality - call it self-responsibility - less of either kind of potion may be needed, and can be stopped or modified sooner.