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General: Is there a way of knowing whether (older) timber has been treated?

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    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012 edited
     
    Am using quite a lot of reclaimed/secondhand carcassing timber, and it would be useful to know which pieces have been treated, partly so that I can use the treated ones in the areas of higher moisture risk but also so that I know which offcuts I can give away as firewood rather than sending them to the tip.

    I know that treated timber has the green colour when new but my understanding is that this fades with time. For pieces that don't obviously have the green tinge is there an easy way of testing them?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
    feed some to insects see if they die!
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: tonyfeed some to insects see if they die!
    feed some to yourself see if you die!

    Older preservatives prob CCA - copper chrome arsenic, or else creosote (coal-tar extract), both extremely toxic to life incl humans - not stuff you want around the house. So let's hope your old timber is not treated.

    If internal, treat now with borate (no more toxic than table salt) but that's no good if it's going to get wet (leaches out). If wet, then various modern preservatives are less-bad that trad ones.
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
    There is no easy way to tell if older timber is treated.

    You can test it, but it can be costly, especially if you don't know what it *might* have been treated with origionally. There are a number of different test types, and so if you don't know what it was treated with (which you obviosuly don't) you may need to have a number of tests done to determine what, if anything, was used.

    Most places would charge a fair amount of money (like hundreds (maybe in excess of £1000)) to provide the testing a issue a report.

    If it is being used inside, don't bother treating with anything (what is the point). If it is being used outside, then you could apply a brush on treatment. Or if it is important outside timber, just 'recycle' it and buy new.
    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012 edited
     
    It's mostly all internal so I'm not going to apply any treatment to it myself, except in a couple of locations.

    I've been using borate already, where I need to treat stuff.

    Seems like there's no way of easily telling so the offcuts will just have to go to the tip.
    • CommentAuthordocmartin
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
    RE: "recycle", especially via the Tip.
    This afternoon I am attending an exhibition about a planning application for a Renewable Energy Plant which will use 45,000 tonnes of woodchip from waste wood. This will be 1-2 miles upwind (30% + of the time) of my house. The technology will be old fashioned moving grate, tube boiler and cloth filters.
    From the comments,above, it seems that treated wood will find it's way into the feedstock. Is borax still harmless when it has passed through relatively low temperature combustion? Is anyone aware of examples of plants in the UK using ceramic filters? Brian Wilson and Renewablejohn have stated that Continental emission rates are lower than the UK. What technology do they generally employ in newly built plants?
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
    Going a bit off piste Doc?
    Re- treated timber. If it has coal tar/creosote then you'll smell it when you cut it, even if it was treated 30 years ago. If it's the copper chromic arsenic then i'd only use it indoors if you'll never actually come into contact with it (i.e stud partitions, joists) but don't forget about a mask when cutting it! But I don't think you'll be able to tell if it's treated anyway.

    If you take either to the "tip" the chances are it will end up with all the other wood and get recycled - usually either burnt in Docmartins power station of ending up in chip/fibreboard.
    PS If you've got copper/chromic/arsenic fence posts then use them as fence posts - they'll last forever and you'll never buy better!!
  8.  
    It was never all green anyway, so green-ness (or faded green-ness) is no indication.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
    Pressure-treated timber actually comes in any one of THREE finishes - green, brown or clear.

    Not a lot of people know that. :wink:
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
    ^yellow and red as well!
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2012
     
    Vac-vac too
    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012
     
    Posted By: windy lamb

    If you take either to the "tip" the chances are it will end up with all the other wood and get recycled ................. ending up in chip/fibreboard.


    Really? I had been under the impression that it is "toxic waste" and can't be recycled. Hence one of the reasons to try and only use treated timber when really necessary.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012
     
    Interesting, Timber (as in username). Never seen it red. What's the process?
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012
     
    As I understand it, a die is added to the treatment, and the colour represent a manufacturer or suppliers corporate colours (roof tiling battens etc).
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012
     
    Thanks. All these colours indicate the presence of a treatment, so a guide to disposal.

    Never gave a thought to the implications of the clear treatment, I only know (knew? not sure if they're still doing it) of one place in Shropshire offering it, where we used to take stuff from the mill if a customer asked not to have our normal green CCA treatment, usually on finished joinery - which is not something I'd have risked!
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012
     
    Is vac vac bad bad?
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012 edited
     
    The term Vac-vac is confusing because it can refer to the treatment process itself, rather than what's used as a preservative.

    The timber is placed inside the treatment plant (a very big cylinder - ours took three long trucks on rails, pushed into the tank by a tractor). A vacuum is applied (the first "vac") to the tank ...

    Tell you what, it's easier just to let someone else explain it... http://www.jcallander.co.uk/timbertreat.shtml

    Confusingly, you'll see the term used at the bottom of that page: "Vac/Vac – a treatment principally for internal building timbers and timber frame components."
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2012
     
    I was never aware of the term vac-vac when I worked at the mill and it's only something I've heard referred to on forums, although no one's ever explained what the actual process or preservative treatment is. I've always assumed it referred to the normal pressure-treatment process so perhaps Tony can explain what it actually refers to.

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